Agenda – Plymouth Select Board 1-18-22 Agenda

Official Minutes – Plymouth Select Board 1-18-22 Minutes

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Dick Quintal:

Hi. Welcome to the Selectmen meeting of January 18th, 2022. We’re meeting at 4:00 today to give candidates for Town Manager position possibly, finalists some time to answer questions in a duly fashion and not a hurried environment. So, Mrs. Cavacco, if you will.

Betty Cavacco:

In accordance with Section 2475, and pursuant to Chapter 20 of the Acts of 2021, this meeting will be conducted via remote means. Members of the public who wish to watch the meeting may do so in the following manner: tune into PACTV government cable access channels Comcast 15 or Verizon 47 and watch the meeting as it is aired live, or watch the meeting live through Fact PACTV’s website at PACTV.org. Members of the public who wish to participate in the meeting may do so in the following manner: contact the Select Board’s Assistant, Chris Badot who is available prior to and throughout the meeting to provide public remote access via the public call-in line which is (508) 322-3380 or email cbadot@plymouth-ma.gov. No in-person attendance of members of the public will be permitted, but every effort will be made to ensure that the public can adequately access the proceedings in real time, via technological means. In the event we are unable to do so, for reasons of economic hardship and despite the best efforts, we will post on the town’s website an audio or video recording, transcript or other comprehensive record of proceedings as soon as possible after the meeting.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you, Mrs. Cavacco. Now, I’m going to turn it over to Bernie Lynch, and he’s going to tell us a quick walk through what we’re going to do. And I believe that Bernie’s going to ask most of the questions that we sent in already, and then we might have some follow-ups or adds to that as we go along.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Thank you, Mr. Chair. The process that we’re going to use is essentially the same that we’ve used in many of our communities that we work with. The goal here is to have this be a dialogue between the candidates, and the board to get a feel for who they are, what their skills are and how they relate to you as board members and then how you would anticipate they would relate to others as well based upon the dialogue that we have with them. I provided you with a number of prompt questions that we would use. Some of those we may skip over a little, but a number of you have sent me some questions to sort of focus in on some areas within those topics that I will use to have this dialogue with the candidates. I don’t want this to be just me asking the questions. I prefer it not to be that. I’d really prefer that as we go through this, as they’re answering the questions that if they say something that isn’t entirely clear to you, or you want more information, or you feel that they’ve missed something and that I haven’t caught on to as they’re answering the questions. The goal here is for you to jump in and have that discussion, that dialogue with them. So, that’s the process that we’re using. We’ve blocked them out at 4:15, 5:30, and 6:45 with Derek Brindisi, Jen Callahan and Jennifer Phillips in that order, but I’ve instructed all the candidates to come in a little bit early in case we get through the questions a little bit faster, and then they’ll be ready to go so that we don’t have a lot of downtime. Again, I can’t stress enough that it is hopefully going to be a dialogue that you have with the candidates. I’m happy to take any feedback that you have now. Chris Badot and I have corresponded earlier today regarding the process. The candidates will be kept in a waiting room, the Zoom waiting room until we’re ready for them. And then he will let them in based upon the board’s availability but happy to take questions or comments at this point, anything that you want to add on to what I’ve provided.

0:05:01

Dick Quintal:

Does anybody have questions for Bernie?

Betty Cavacco:

I do. Just a quick question, can the other candidates–I know that at one point we had enabled the waiting room to be able to hear the meetings. I just wanted to be sure that they cannot hear the meeting.

Bernard Lynch:

Chris?

Chris Badot:

Yes?

Betty Cavacco:

Which one?

Chris Badot:

So, yeah, they cannot hear the meeting if they were in the waiting room. But if they’re live streaming, they could. I don’t know if you asked them not to do that.

Bernard Lynch:

I did ask them not to do that.

Chris Badot:

Okay. Nope, so if they’re in the waiting room, they won’t be able to hear the meeting.

Betty Cavacco:

Thank you, Chris.

Chris Badot:

You’re welcome.

Bernard Lynch:

Good. All right. Is our first candidate here by any chance, Chris?

Chris Badot:

Yes, he is. Would you like him in?

Bernard Lynch:

Well, let’s see if the board has any other questions or comments.

Chris Badot:

Okay.

Bernard Lynch:

Anything? Anybody?

Betty Cavacco:

No.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Well, Chris, I think we’re ready.

Chris Badot:

Here he comes.

Bernard Lynch:

Good afternoon, Derek. I don’t think we can hear you.

Derek Brindisi:

How’s that?

Bernard Lynch:

That is much better. Thank you.

Derek Brindisi:

Good afternoon.

Bernard Lynch:

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us. I will let that I didn’t mention this performance to Mr. Chair, but if maybe everyone could introduce themselves. Derek may know some or all of you, but perhaps to start off with that way and then we’ll get into the questions.

Dick Quintal:

Ladies before Gentlemen.

Betty Cavacco:

Hi, Derek! I am Betty Cavacco, and I am in my fifth year of serving as a Select Board member.

Dick Quintal:

Pat?

Patrick Flaherty:

Hi, Derek! Patrick Flaherty here.

Dick Quintal:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

Hi, Derek! Harry Helm, you may remember me from the Advisory and Finance Committee, but now I’m on the Select Board. I was elected this past May.

Dick Quintal:

Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

Hey, Derek, how are you? I’m Charlie Bletzer. I was elected in a special election August 14th. I just kind of saw some of the newbie on the board. Nice to meet you.

Dick Quintal:

Hi, Derek! I’m Dick Quintal, Chairman of the Select Board as they call it now. And I’m going into my second year. I’ve served previous years well over 10. So, anyway, I thought I’d come back and try it a little bit.

Bernard Lynch:

It was so much fun, right? Well, Derek, the Board just had an opportunity to see your resume, and obviously they know you served some time in Plymouth, so they know a little about you, but maybe if you could just talk to the board a little bit about your background, but most importantly why are you interested in the Town of Plymouth and this position?

Derek Brindisi:

Thank you everyone for having me and allowing me to be a finalist here this afternoon. So, as my resume indicates, I’ll just go back on my experience. I had the opportunity to work for the City of Worcester for about 15 years. I was appointed at early age of age 30 years old to be the Director of Health Administration, and I’ll talk more about it, but I‘ve led that that department to a very challenging time and have the opportunity to rebuild it to be the first accredited department in Massachusetts. From that point forward, I wanted to really kind of change my trajectory in the Municipal Government knowing that I didn’t want to leave Municipal Government but what other opportunities presented themselves, and I then as you know had the opportunity to serve as the Assistant Town Manager in Plymouth from 2015 to 2017, where I was able to build many relationships not only with the Town Board of Select members but many of the department heads that continue to serve the community today and many of the frontline staff as well. So, I always took away from that experience with a love for the Town of Plymouth and hope that someday I could return, but when an opportunity presented itself in 2017 with the Town of Upton, I thought it was best to move my career to be the Town Manager instead of the Assistant Town Manager.

0:10:10

Derek Brindisi:

I remember during that time that there were certain skill sets that I really wanted to sharpen. As the Town Manager in Upton as you can imagine, it’s a smaller community, $25 million budget, and many of the things that we have to do whether some statutes or local bylaws, we don’t have a bandwidth as far as staffing. So, many of those responsibilities such as procurement, human resources, developing with the annual budget all fall on the shoulders of the Town Manager in this type of community. So, I appreciate having served in Upton for almost five years now because I was really able to really hone my skills. So, moving to a larger community if I were chosen, I feel that I have the experience to really sit down and probe questions so meet the Finance Director, and probe certain specific questions about entire finances and the things that we do because of that experience.

As you know from my resume, I’ve been serving almost 17 years in the Air National Guard and stationed at the Pease National Air Guard Base enforcement another seaport community, and I’m currently serving as a Lieutenant Colonel at the 157th medical group. I served also five years now running as adjunct faculty member at Worcester State University, and as you can see, I am a credentialed Manager through ICMA. I am one of only 24 credentialed managers in all of Massachusetts. So, that’s kind of like my background of who I am and what brought me here today.

Why do I want to come to Plymouth? Well, really the answer is I want to come back to Plymouth. This is a well-thought-of position across Massachusetts, and it would allow a person itself to kind of be at the pinnacle of a career. And the time that I served there, I’ll be honest with you, I had never gone to Plymouth until the day I started working actually with that interview back in 2015, but in that two-year period, I really fell in love the community. I had the opportunity to live in the Manomet area, so I lived very close to the beach. And again, that two years for me was extremely important. So, I do believe given my past experience in Plymouth and my present experience in Upton, I would be an ideal candidate, because I could really hit the ground running right away given the fact that I know many of the staff and I know many of those community members already. I feel like my relationships with many of those folks in Plymouth continues today. I would encourage you to talk to others whether they may be department heads or other folks in the community to learn more about how I interacted with them.

Bernard Lynch:

Derek, before we go much further, there seems to be a little bit of an audio problem, and I know that a couple members have noted that to me. Is there a way that we can improve the audio coming out of your computer there?

Derek Brindisi:

Well, I’ll just try to put the earbuds in, maybe that’ll help.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Zoom is wonderful but it has its limitations too, so.

Derek Brindisi:

I’ll do it. Hopefully this will work. Just give me a second to make sure. Actually, I brought these as a backup because you just don’t know.

Bernard Lynch:

Yeah, not a problem at all. Thank you.

Derek Brindisi:

Okay. Let me know if that’s any better.

Bernard Lynch:

Board members, is that better? Yeah, that is better. Thank you. Great. Thank you very much. I can’t believe that you hadn’t been to Plymouth until you started, you never went to see Plymouth Rock when you were a high school student or a grade school student or–

Derek Brindisi:

No, they would take us to the Boston Aquarium, that was our annual trip as a grade schooler. So, no, honestly, I had never been to Plymouth at all. In fact, I remember when I went there, I honestly thought I was going to a small seaside community and then quickly, did I realize that Plymouth is extremely complex with the fourth-largest rural network in Massachusetts, the largest geographic area. So, Plymouth presents its challenges.

0:15:02

Derek Brindisi:

I would always say when I came back to the Upton area that when I think of Plymouth, I think of it has its urban issues like some urban core issues, it’s got suburban issues, and it’s got many rural issues as well. So, from a management perspective, you really have to be fluid to understand the different dynamics in the neighborhoods in which you’re trying to resolve problems, because they’re all so different.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great observation. Let’s talk about you’ve had an opportunity in Upton certainly and in Worcester, you served a key role within the overall organization and obviously, your military background. Talk to us about your leadership style. And if you could, cite some examples of how you would lead a team. And then I have some follow-up questions probably that a couple board members asked me to sort of fill in if you hadn’t hit them, but talk to us about how you would lead the organization? What would that look like?

Derek Brindisi:

Sure. So, I guess I would just if I had to choose two words, I would say first collaborative and two strategic. So, I pride myself on being a collaborative leader. What I mean by that is I really engage folks at all different levels. Certainly, it’s easy to say that having conversations with the department heads to resolve issues at that level is important, but it’s also just as important and what I’ve learned over the last seven years is that engaging the community in a collaborative manner is just as important, because oftentimes you will get the answer you’re looking for by engaging community and boards and committee members. So, as we have conversations with boards and committee members, understanding their perspective, we all look at issues with a different lens, and trying to understand where those issues are stemming from are all super important.

One thing that I can talk more about collaborative leader style, I’ve had the opportunity on multiple occasions from various leadership courses is to go through the Myers-Briggs. I don’t know if you’re familiar with Myers-Briggs or Four Lenses. So, Four Lenses are the type of Myers-Briggs, and what you learn from those analytical projects is that people think about issues differently and that’s a good thing. And so, what I take back from that is just because I’m going to disagree with somebody, I try to understand based upon how they’re wired, that why are they looking at that issue that different way. So, that helps me be a better leader in trying to get to the root cause of some issues. So, I would say, first, I’m a collaborative leader. And again, I think that my reputation in Plymouth would certainly speak to that and certainly my reputation often speaks of that.

The last piece I would say is I’d definitely would define myself as a strategic thinker. I’ve always gone about my business thinking about strategic, thinking even back to my Worcester days when we engaged 150 folks in the community and a hundred different businesses really developed a strategic plan for the health of Worcester but then that took me a little bit further. I had the opportunity back in 2015, I was selected amongst two or three other members at the base to go to the Army War College for about a week. And so, we’re sitting in this room. There’s probably 50 of us from nomination, sitting and we’re just learning about strategic planning. And so, normally, when we talk about strategic planning at the local level, we’re thinking 5 years maybe 10 years depending on the issue, but we were talking about strategic planning 50 years out in the Army War College, and it really demonstrated how small and how focused our strategic thinking can be when sometimes we really have to take not the 40,000 foot level but even the 80,000 foot level to really look across spectrum and try to understand the issues and try to develop long-term plans in order to get that position. So, it’s great to say, where does Plymouth want to be in 2025. I would argue where is Plymouth going to be in 2030? Because we’re going to start setting the foundation today if we want to get it tomorrow.

0:20:00

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Along those lines, that’s probably a great lead-in regarding the notion of transitions that happen in local government. There’s certainly a sense that the town is going through a major transition in its structure and its style. Certainly, the Plymouth of 2022 is different than the Plymouth of 2000. And as you look forward to the 2030s, 2040s, it’s going to be vastly different. Can you tell us your experience in leading an organization through change? Some great examples there of how you sort of started to think about change within an organization in an organizational culture, but can you describe your experience in leading an organization through change?

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah. So, I’ll try to touch on a few different examples starting in Worcester, and I started to talk about it in my opener. When the city manager had come to me, this was the 9C cuts of 2009. I’m sure you remember those. They were whistle laid off probably 150 people during the 9C cuts, and I was working in a department that all but four of us are laid off. The City Manager came to me and said, “Listen, I want you to reconstruct this department. I want it to be community engaged. I want it to be data driven. Oh, and by the way, I’m not giving you any money to do this.” So, again, I was 30 years old, and I was really trying to think how am I going to do this. So, what we decided to do is we really decided to engage community, we were engaged in universities for assistance to help give us some bandwidth, and then I started having conversations with the six area town managers about regionalizing services. Actually, it’s 15 in the beginning, we ended up establishing interim agreements with six of the neighboring communities.

So, what we did during that time is we created a regional department that six other administrators were relying on. So, those IMA’s then contributed to 25% of our resources for the department. We will grant at a very early time, we will bring in this very small department $6 million annually in grants, which contributed to about 50% of our operating costs and then the last 25% is from the city alone. So, we were able to diversify our revenue streams so that in the future, we will be resilient to the economy and for our poor economies, I should say. And so, by the time I left that department, it was 25% FTE. So, we went from 4 FTEs to 25 FTEs. And as I mentioned earlier, that department became the first accredited department in all of Massachusetts. It outpaced Boston and it outpaced the City of Cambridge as well. And it ended up becoming a national model to regionalizing services. So, that was one of my first forays in leading change.

My other big one was when I came here to the Town of Upton. It was a similar situation where the Board of Selectmen they were looking for change and they no longer accepted status quo. And I remember saying to them during my interview, “Listen, if you want status quo, please don’t call me back because that’s not going to do. Everything I’ve done in the career is to move an organization in a different direction and hopefully in a positive direction.” Again, when I came here, we had low morale among staff. There was no vision for commercial growth in the town. And so overtime, we were able to work on that. I wrote a grant. We received a grant from the state to develop an economic development plan. We then went ahead. We had a contractor to help us by setting a vision for the town center and try to expand commercial growth opportunities in the town center. There was a 20-plus year conversation about rebuilding a new library. I was able to get the different constituencies together and not build a new library, but design a community center which will house a library in the city center. We just broke ground on that less than 3 weeks ago. We hope to have a living on that in 12 months from today. So, these are the different positive examples and achievements that I’ve been able to accomplish during my career with trying to move and resort in an organization through change.

0:25:27

Bernard Lynch:

How would you go about looking at the Plymouth structure? Obviously, you’re familiar with the Plymouth organizational structure, how would you go about looking to reorganize? What would be the criteria by which you would propose any reorganizations?

Derek Brindisi:

So, first, I would say in Upton, I went to two reorganizations. The first thing I did is not do anything. So, I really wanted to get a sense of how the departments were operating, I wanted to talk to the staff. Certainly, I wanted to talk to the elected body to hear from them because they’ve been closer to it than I have. And then during that period of time, the first reorganization that I implemented in Upton was creating a Finance Department. Now, I know Plymouth already has a Finance Department, but that wasn’t the case in Upton. We had a Board of Assessors, we had a Town County, we had a Treasure Collectors Office that were all separate and distinct organizations. From time, it was my goal to bring them all under one roof for efficiency purposes, for personnel purposes to support one another. Because again, these are really one main operations for the most part and so when a person is on vacation that office would shut down, and then ultimately create a Finance Director position that would provide supervision and oversight to that economy. So, that was one reorganization.

And then most recently this past fall, the Fire Department in Upton has gone through multiple fire issues in the last couple of years since I sat. One thing that I do, and I try to do is often try to find the individuals within the organization that excel. People that I can depend on, individuals that if I ask for a task to get done, I don’t have to follow up because they’ll typically get back to me before I even have to ask the question the second time. And we have individuals like that here in Upton. And so, because we have that level of professionalism and expertise, I was able to think way outside the box, and create what we have is now we have a Public Safety Department. So, what I did is I went to the Police Chief, who is that professional, he has led his police department through multiple accreditations, re-accreditations. He is the utmost of a professional. He actually is the president of the Massachusetts Association this year, and I went to him and I said, “Chief, this is what I’m thinking. Given what you do to this community and the folks that are willing to follow you, I’m asking you if you’d be willing to take on a leadership role in what will be a newly formed Public Safety Department, which it will be the police department, the fire department, emergency management division all under your leadership.” He acknowledged it, and we worked out the structure in which we could operationalize that and that continues. Again, it’s new. We just started it in August of this past year, but I can tell you when we had a bond rating call with S&P, and for some reason this question about reorganizing the Public Safety Department came up and I was asked a question, “Where did you get that from? Where did you do your research online?” I had my responses when we get a lot of lip reviews, and we looked at best practices across the region not just in the northeast and that’s how we came to this conclusion. S&P, I’ll be honest with you, they had said that our response was something that they would expect by the City of New York, with how we did the lip reviews and how we went across state lines to find what we think is the best and brightest ideas that were out there. So, those are two of one of our most recent organizations that I’ve had a heavy hand.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great. One more question along these lines that sort of ties to this, what do you see is the greatest threats to local government? Well, maybe give us one short-term threat to local government and one long-term threat.

0:30:14

Derek Brindisi:

Okay, that’s a good question. Let me start with the long-term threat first. I do think these threats are interwoven. So, about 2 years ago, I sat down with our department heads, we did a SWOT analysis. I think you all know what SWOT analysis: strength, weaknesses, opportunities and threats. So, we talked about because I really wanted to start to forecast where our departments needed to be in the next five years, and the most common theme that came from all the departments as far as threats was our human resources. We have struggled with finding professional municipal employees to be the next in line to be our future leaders, and that’s a significant problem I would say not just locally, but I would say it probably transcends every municipality certainly Massachusetts and probably across the nation. The fact that we’re starting to see a high turnover in local government both in retirements and maybe some folks moving on to the private sector, and we don’t have the ability to retain them or we don’t have the ability to replace them, which is more of a concern. So, long-term succession planning I think is a paramount importance for every municipality.

So, this short-term threat I hope isn’t on the horizon, but I have a feeling that it could be out there is an impending recession in late 2022. So, I try to do the best that I can in between my jobs to try to read up on what’s going on with the global market. What I’ve started to learn is that Germany is already heading towards a recession. So, the last quarter, they had a dip in their GDP. Definition of recession is two consecutive decreasing quarters would put that nation into recession, and Europe as a whole relies on Germany’s market. So, this caused them to question what could happen in Germany in 6 to 12 months from now. In addition to that, throughout this nation, we still at the end of 2021, we have still had 10 million job vacancies that are out there, which has led to supply chain problems, which has led to inflation problems and so on and so forth. So, all of these variables to me should be cause for a concern. The Federal Reserve has already stated that they plan on going up on interest rates in 2022. Some have suggested up to four times as a strategy to control inflation, so I know that we’ll talk about the state’s surplus and how well Massachusetts has done as a whole, and maybe some of that money will trickle down to us at a local level with but I would not be crowded by the state’s economy and leaning a little bit more forward to say, “Let’s be cautious as we head into 2022,” because there’s a lot of other flags that are out there that are a concern.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great. I’m going to have some questions to tie to that probably in a second, but I wanted to give the board an opportunity if there’s anything in this category of management. You hit upon economic development, which I want to get back to as well, and the finances which I want to speak to, but in terms of management style, leadership style, any board questions that people want to ask at this point? All right. You’ve put out your crystal ball, and you’ve shown that there might be some clouds on the horizon regarding the economy. Let’s talk about how you would manage the finances of the Town of Plymouth. What has been your approach in Upton? What would be your approach to managing finances in the Town of Plymouth?

Derek Brindisi:

So, certainly, I want to sit down with the finance team and dive deep into everything that’s happening with the current state of condition in town.

0:35:07

Derek Brindisi:

I want to learn more about the fluctuating excess levy capacity which I’ve noticed, and see-through cash certified at $20 million, the tax rate seems like it’s stable, although that’s always something that we need to talk a little about. The commercial industrial growth is hot and loads again stuck at 12%. So, I kind of want to learn more about all that but what I can say is that, again, I’m the type of person that lands on plans and tries to not be a mile wide religious people. What do I mean by that? So, like we can do a lot of things for the community but if we’re only an inch deep, we’re really not gaining any profit. So, to try to narrow our focus and not do so many things so that we can be making progress in certain years I think is super important.

One thing I’ve done in Upton is I worked with the finance committee to develop a financial policy. This is about three or four years ago. It was then adopted by the Board of Selectmen soon after. When I came to town, we were certifying free cash at about 2% of our operating budget. Right now, our free cash the last three years has been certified at 10% of our operating budget. Our stabilization account was less than 5%. DLS said best practices, yeah, stabilization account should be at least 10% of your operating budget. So, in this case, we’d be looking at approximately $26 million for the Town of Plymouth. I believe that stabilization I think is under $30 million, so it’s about 5%. So, I’d want to work with the Departments first and then start to have these conversations with the Finance Committee and the Select Board to start to determine what financial position do we want to be in the next five years. I can tell you that our general stabilization is at our 10% mark based upon the policy that we created a few years back in Upton. So, because of that financial planning, I can tell you with absolute certainty that the Town of Upton is in a very strong financial position as long as they continue to maintain this policy for years to come.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. So, have you hit 10% in Upton?

Derek Brindisi:

Yes. Our general stabilization is at 10%, and we’re certifying at about 9% of the year free cash, which is high. So, what we did is we definitely could throttle it back if we needed to, but again, that’s strong budgeting. So, as you know free cash comes from a couple different areas. Obviously, it comes from new growth, comes from turn backs and local receipts. But we’ve been able over time to build that up to get to the 10% mark. And then the other thing I didn’t mention when we think about finances, we worked with department of local services, this is pre-COVID. We sat down with them, and we went through this five-year financial forecasting model. I’m not familiar with it, and so we actually can project out–again, this is pre-COVID, so things have definitely changed, but the whole idea was that we were going to project out our expenses and our operating budget over the next five years so that we’re more predictable in where we need to be. And if there’s opportunities in there for new initiatives, we can then fit those in.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. All right. Did DLS did that for you?

Derek Brindisi:

Yes, we worked with DLS on that. That was right before COVID so that 5-year forecasting time was out the window given other things happening with COVID but at some point, when things stabilized, we would then definitely get back to that so that again, we can be more predictable in the things that we do year after year.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Have you had DLS do a financial management review for you?

Derek Brindisi:

Financial management review, prior to myself getting him a full-time manager, they had received a grant for the community contract to do the financial review, and they had established financial policies for the day-to-day operations of finances. What I had done different is I then came in and then set a financial reserve policy, and honestly, I stole a book from the City of Worcester’s page where we would then appropriate a certain percentage of our free cash every year towards general stabilization, towards capital improvement.

0:40:05

Derek Brindisi:

So, this way by having this policy, we know exactly each and every year what percentage of money we would have put towards into the general stabilization account, into capital improvement. So, then it took away the guesswork, and it took away the politics of trying to move money back and forth into different departments.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. One more question on finance. When I asked about the long-term threat to local government, many people would probably point to the OPEB issue. What’s been your experience in handling the unfunded OPEB liabilities in Upton, and how would you go about dealing within in Plymouth?

Derek Brindisi:

Right. So, again, this is a question that every municipality is grappling with, probably all but one in Massachusetts. So, like every other community, we have an OPEB trust fund and every year, we commit a hundred thousand dollars to the tax levy into the trust fund and so we continue to do that. But I think that what I wanted to do was be a little bit more strategic around OPEB liability. The first year that I came to town, I had to negotiate with the four unions with successor agreements. What I have proposed and what I got a commitment from all four unions is that effective on the first day of our contracts, all new employees would contribute 2% of their base wages into the OPEB trust fund. From what I have gathered, Upton was the first community in Central Massachusetts that was able to get the bargaining units to agree to helping curb the OPEB liability. So, that’s what we do now and because of that, we’re contributing a $100,000 to the tax levy and when it’s all said and done over time turnover, we’ll be contributing approximately $100,000-$200,00 just through employee contributions as well. So, that’s kind of the short of how we’re going to try to slow down the growing OPEB liability. But long term, I think that we all kind of believe that it’s really not going to be addressed until our pension liabilities are fully funded.

In Upton, our pension liabilities are basically fully funded in 2034, and we’ve made a commitment that we would flip those contributions from the retirement system over to OPEB at that point. From my research, it appears that some of this OPEB liability is north of $900 million. So, certainly there’s a long way to go, but I think again, from what I just outlined, I think there are some things that we can potentially do in the short term just to try to mitigate that for future references.

Bernard Lynch:

Financial Management questions, anybody? Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

The last 2 years for municipal planning has been kind of brave new world for everyone, and I’m curious with COVID as a major factor to the planning process and the uncertainties that I’m sure every town faced, what was one of the most difficult decisions that you had to work through, maybe it’s financial or maybe it was something else, in the last 2 years specifically that was something new that you hadn’t come across before in your experience?

Derek Brindisi:

Well, let me start by saying that financially the town was in strong condition to whether any decreases in revenue, so whether those in state revenue dollars that may have potentially reduced or even local tax dollars. So, we put ourselves in a position again by filling up our general stabilization account and having strong free cash reserves in order to weather that. To be honest with you, I was less worried about laying on staff. In fact, my commitment early on in the COVID was we will do everything we can to keep our staff employed. When I came here five years earlier, low morale amongst our staff, and we had worked so hard to rebuild those relationships with our staff that I wanted to ensure that they knew that, I was in their corners to do anything to help them.

0:45:18

Derek Brindisi:

But I think what I struggled with the most early in the COVID experience was just the intensity of which everything is changing, and whether it was CDC guidance, state guidance, the local bord of health, and even the community pressures. Again, we were dealing with uncertainty at the time and I would say we were getting more phone calls from the community on what they think are appropriate measures than I was getting from some of my boards and committees. So, I have to be honest, early on that was a highly stressed moment for me just to try to balance all of that. And then again, not having a Human Resources Department having to be the chief author working with my HR system on what are we going to do to protect our workforce? And what do we need to do to return them back to work and having a proper company in place? Honestly, those are my major challenges that we have worked through, and I felt like once we got through those, things started to settle down. We took this as an opportunity to become more electronic and more resilient to future issues. For example; we had the opportunity to use CARES Act to acquire a very smart online premium software program for our co-department, our fire department and that continues today. The staff love it. They can work from home even in the environment we’re dealing with Omicron. We could easily turn the lights out of town hall, and go work from home, all of our staff has laptops and continued to name the continuity of government that folks understood and wanted pre-COVID. I hope that answered your question.

Bernard Lynch:

Derek, let’s move into economic development. In talking about the town’s finances, and you had some good discussion of some financial strategies, financial policies, financial best practices there. Oftentimes, many communities look at economic development as the way that they’re going to sort of grow their way out of any financial strains without burdening the residential taxpayer. What has been your experience in economic development? And what do you feel is the role of the town manager in promoting commercial development within a community? And your experiences in that area will be great.

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah, that’s a good question. So, what is the role of Town Manager? I can tell you what the role was in Upton for economic development. This is one of the questions that was posed to me five years ago. The Town of Upton wanted to maintain its rural character, but at the same time, they wanted commercial growth, commercial industry to expand in town. And so, therein lies the conflict, right? So, how do you maintain the character in the community but at the same time developing the community, right? So, I really became focused not at the community at large but looking at areas of opportunity. The first area of opportunity that I had seen and I found it during my research, and then I found it when I met with board members walking on Main Street, it was our town center. Our town center was underutilized. We had dilapidated buildings, vacant lots and little former oil companies that used to operate under, and I looked at it and then there was a church that was left vacant for about 10 years. And to me, those weren’t light. Those houses weren’t light, but there were aims of opportunity. When we think about coaching though let’s focus on the areas that have already been developed but are being underutilized. So, if folks in the community don’t want to rise up and be a part of that conversation so the town management can at least set the course and set the vision working with the economic development committee, which we didn’t have in Upton prior my existence.

0:50:11

Derek Brindisi:

In fact, I encourage the Board of Selectmen to appoint an economic development committee so I can work one-on-one with community members on the downtown redevelopment. So, that was what our focus was. We ended up highlighting this message. We hired a consultant to help us go through a visioning process for the redevelopment of the town center and to expand commercial growth opportunities. It’s slow-going. The pandemic certainly didn’t help us, but even during the pandemic, we were able to cite–actually, two businesses cited and just have opened up in time in the last year and a half, a local brewery came to town and then the local flower shop had come into the town center. At this point right now, I’m still working with the economic committee. We’re going to issue an RFP. The town has acquired three out of the four key passes in the town center that we are saving for a mixed-use development project. And part of that is like just engaging real estate developers but real estate agents as well. Many of the leads that I have had come from real estate agents who have called me and said, “Hey, I have a client who’s looking for this. What do you have in town?” We opened up a marijuana shop in our C&I district two years ago and that came from a local real estate agent who had a client. So, again, to answer your question, I really want to focus in two things. One, let’s set a vision for the underutilized, underdeveloped areas because those I think will provide a greater opportunity, and create less resistance in the community from the folks that want to continue to maintain some of its history.

Bernard Lynch:

The largest industry arguably in Plymouth is tourism. Certainly, it’s a big part probably not the entire part, but it’s a big part of the downtown activity certainly at certain times of the year it is, and that has to be recognized and appreciated for what it does for the town. Do you feel the town, particularly given your experience here in Plymouth, do you feel a need to address light industrial and office commercial presence in the Town of Plymouth? How would you go about getting more non-tourism-based non-downtown, not that there shouldn’t be effort put into the downtown, but sort of the other types of economic developments that are going to produce jobs and large tax bills?

Derek Brindisi:

So, again, I think the pandemic certainly has changed the dynamic of light industrial commercial growth. I would go back to looking at our industrial box and learning more about what’s vacant, what’s working, what’s not working, and then engage businesses around what they think are necessary to continue businesses. There are hundreds of home-based businesses not just in Plymouth but around the commonwealth that I feel like are often overlooked. So, when you talk about commercial office space, to me, there’s an opportunity there. If we have hundreds of home-based businesses well, they’re limited as to what they can do at home, but can we create a co-op? You see, these co-ops have pre-COVID popped up in many places in downtown Boston where businesses were sharing space. They were using the same meeting space, office space as other businesses were, but they didn’t need it Monday through Friday, they only need it a couple of days a week. So, that’s a one-year opportunity. I would like to learn to see if there’s a need for co-ops in the white industrial sector. Funny, you did mention the downtown area, and this is something that I’ve always thought of in my head with one of the potential barriers to making the downtown more of a tourist attraction.

0:55:04

Derek Brindisi:

People come to Plymouth for a lot of reasons. We know that they are continuing to come to Plymouth, but how can we make it more attractive? I see a disconnect of what’s happening in the waterfront versus what’s happening on 4th street, and then you have the neighborhoods in between. So, for me, it’s about creating connectivity between those two commercial spaces. I would really love to work with the Economic Development Director and others in the community. I’m thinking about ways to create that connectivity because you’ve got restaurants at the top of the hill, there’s some on the bottom, you’ve got the parks at the bottom of the hill. And so, trying to get people to move back and forth, from the top to the bottom, I think is immensely important.

The last thing I would say is maybe we have to look at ourselves, right? So, what policies are preventing us from expanding commercial opportunities? Are there height restrictions in certain areas? Are there zoning restrictions in certain areas that are actually preventing us from those types of opportunities that we’re not seeing right now? And then the last thing I just throw in before you went to the next question is working with Mass Development. So, even in a small community like an Upton like I’ve had many conversations with Mass Development. I told them, “These are the things that are on the horizon and updated. If you come across developers or real estate agents that are looking to cite these types of industries, call us and then again, work with the state delegation on that as well so that they also have listed on those issues as well is extremely important.

Bernard Lynch:

Economic development questions that people may have that we haven’t hit upon? I think we hit upon a number of different elements of that, but I want to make sure everyone’s set. Okay.

Let’s come back into the town organization. You talked about personnel management, and the way in which as town manager you would interact with the staff. I mean, I think you did hit upon a key issue, when you’re talking about the challenge facing local government with the ability to fill positions. That is a stumbling block for many communities right now. Tell us your approach to motivating and evaluating employees and holding them accountable? What’s your strategy? What’s your approach to doing that? With example.

Derek Brindisi:

Great question. This really came from my time in Upton. Worcester didn’t apply this practice and Plymouth didn’t require this practice either, but I can tell you, and I was talking today about this annual performance evaluations for the department heads I think are absolutely critical and did a lot of work. So, it’s not just that we were checking boxes off, but what I have done in Upton is I meet with all the department heads annually. We go for goal setting process.

So, oftentimes, I ask them to bring goals to me, but during the course of the year, there are things that may trouble me or things that I want to see accomplished or maybe board members are asking me that they want to see improvements in certain areas, and so I ended up setting anywhere from five to seven goals from each one of my departments based upon those three variables. What’s the department head seeing? Because remember, these are our professionals. They should have an air to the ground on best practices grant opportunities, I really expect them to be bringing ideas forward so, that would continue year after year to make progress within each one of our departments. But I’m also going to recognize things and see things that I want to accomplish, and the board is also going to recognize things that they want to accomplish. So, collectively, we agree on these five or seven goals that I would say need to be realistic, that can be accomplished over the course of that year. So, we have agreement. So, we go for, we set these goals, that’s then reduced to writing and then documented, put in the file. Some department heads like to circle back six months later and do a check-in, a midpoint check-in. Other department heads are like, “Listen, I can work on these.” We’ll have conversations in the course of the year and then at the end of the year, we sit down and we go for them, and we determine whether or not they’ve been able to accomplish these goals.

1:00:15

Derek Brindisi:

Now that’s one way to hold department heads economy to name your performance with you. In some cases, there are financial incentives that are actually right, and so it’s worked extremely well in Upton, and it’s something that I would want to continue if I were chosen in Plymouth.

Bernard Lynch:

What about the rank-and-file employee? Not the department head level, but the people that are boots on the ground. What’s your style of interacting with the staff, in general?

Derek Brindisi:

Let me tell you a short story. In the military, when there’s a new commander who’s been appointed, we’ve had something called change of command center, and they bring all who were listed with the officer forward together so they can watch this change of command from the old committee of the new community. So, that’s kind of a pumping circumstance, but after that happens, one thing a good commander does, he or she will certainly sit down with his officers, right? In the local level, your officers are your department heads but what a really good commander does is that he then goes and sits down in his enlisted force, and he sits and then he puts the offices aside and he sits and he learns what’s happening on the front lines of their work, and he takes all that in and that drives a lot of his decision-making when ultimately, he sets the course for the squadron. So, that’s how I look at how I would want to work with all of our staff. Certainly, me with the department heads command center, but how can we get at the rank-and-file, the ones that are front facing the public, because I’m sure they have a story to tell, and I need to hear that story if we really let our main change.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Can you give us an example of a difficult employee matter that you’ve handled in the past? Obviously, without any names or specifics, either you feel you handled well or something that didn’t go quite as you thought, but you learned from it as a result.

Derek Brindisi:

So, this is a learning opportunity relative to employees. So, I would say there was this one occasion where I was working with the division head, and clearly progress had seen me. So, you stopped the early interventions, you sit down with them behind closed doors, you try to understand some root causes of the issues. Are there challenges, are there barriers that are preventing this employee from being able to be a successful tribute to the organization? And so, I did all that, and then it didn’t work. So, then I had to take the next step and put this person on a performance improvement thing. So, again, now I’m sitting down with them, chatting the course, these are the incremental steps I need you to take to be successful. You need to accomplish these things for the greater good for the organization. Let’s list these things out, and we’ll come back. That was a struggle to the point where I then had to set a weekly meeting every Tuesday morning for an hour where I sat with this employee to go over the performance improvement. And to be honest with you, this employee never improves. And so, it got to the point, where I thought I had exhausted all the remedies necessary to help this person be a contributing success. Ultimately, we were going to move to disciplinary action. This specific employee decided to resign. So, that I would say was probably one of my most challenging interfaces with an employee that I thought ultimately it worked out well for both sides because no one had to be disciplined, but it was a lot of work on my part just to do everything I could to make this person successful. Excuse me, give me one second.

1:05:14

Bernard Lynch:

Yeah. I was worried you hadn’t paid your electric bill.

Derek Brindisi:

Sorry, that was my light timer.

Bernard Lynch:

Collective Bargaining, talk to us about your approach to collective bargaining.

Derek Brindisi:

So, I would say this, I thought you would generally ask me something I learned, a mistake that I made that I learned from. So, I would say that one of the mistakes that I’ve learned from is around collective bargaining. So, as you know at least during the time that I was in the administration and our body movements were often at ends with one another, and it created a very contentious unpleasant working environment for administrators and for the performance. That’s how it was when I was there two years. I can tell you though that I feel like even though that was kind of the mantra, I did everything I could to build relationships with various movements.

That being said, I come to Upton and I had the approach with the Upton committees that, I guess my experience was in Plymouth that this is negotiations and we will negotiate and do whatever we can to have the best outcome for the town. What I learned in Upton is that that does not have to be the cold starting thing to the point where I would love to say something that negotiations, these aren’t collective bargaining negotiations, these are collective bargaining conversations. So, that we don’t have to have a contentious relationship. Both sides can bring to the table issues of concern, we can resolve them that both sides saying or something. We all walked away with gaining a little out of us, and we’re able to shake hands and walk away from that conversation. So, my approach today is very different than in my experience was five years ago in Plymouth. So, that would be my approach moving forward that I would love to sit down with the union presidents early on and start those conversations. Tell me some of the issues that so that I know about them up front, so we can do whatever we can to mitigate those to prevent future grievances areas, such as we’re just combusting energy, we’re combusting money and time and no side is going to win.

Bernard Lynch:

Derek, one of the priorities of the board when they brought us on to help with this search is that they wanted a town manager to improve communications with residents and improve services to residents. It really is sort of committing to engaging with the community and becoming part of the community. How would you go about doing that if you were to become the town manager of Plymouth?

Derek Brindisi:

Well, as far as becoming the fabric of the community, it would definitely be my intention to purchase a home in town so that I can start to have the same feel that every resident has: of driving through town, going to the local market and having that same experience. So, it’s different when you don’t have that lived experience, and then go ahead and try to make decisions for those people that are having had that experience. So, I definitely want to be a part of the community in that way. One thing in Upton though, Upton doesn’t have nearly as many community events as Plymouth work.

1:10:02

Derek Brindisi:

But we would always have a Memorial Day parade, and my former Chairman, he’s a retired Coast Guard officer and for 20 plus years during the Memorial Day parade he would wear his uniform and when he found out that I was in office in the military, he highly encouraged me to wear my uniform and walk with him in the Memorial Day Parade. I would want to continue to engage in all the different community events that Plymouth has to offer. I feel like the more visible the town manager is, people will start to understand where the issue is coming from, and it then provides for conversations that normally wouldn’t have happened otherwise. So, that’s kind of like a personal level.

On a professional level, I’d love to see Plymouth do the things that we did in Worcester, where honestly, we would engage the communities at multiple different levels. In Worcester, we wouldn’t just have these “town hall meetings,” where we would invite people to talk to us. There were so many different neighborhoods in Worcester. We would actually set an agenda, where we would go to these neighborhoods and have conversations at places where they found most comfortable. So, I’d like to explore that a little bit of how well we can engage folks at that level. And I remember doing that over at the lodge, over on the internet, they would have a monthly meeting and I would try to attend that meeting just to talk to the residents on the internet on things that happened in their neighborhood.

Bernard Lynch:

In terms of relationships, we’re coming close to the time here. So, I do want to get into this with you. One of your most important relationships is with the Select Board. Talk to us about what that looks like. How do you interact with the Select Board in Upton? How do you see yourself interacting with Select Board in Plymouth?

Derek Brindisi:

So, the first thing I would love to do with the Select Board’s approval is go through to have a workshop of goal setting. Clearly, I’ll fight along around the board because they want to see change, and we all come at this for different reasons and have different opinions. And so collectively, I want to have a goal-setting process, so we can identify what are some of the short-term goals, what’s some low-hanging fruit that the board agrees that we need to work on right away? And then at the same time, what are some of the long-term strategic plans we have to start to check the course for? And so, that would be something I want to do early on with the board members. Certainly, like any other board members, I would want to talk to them on a regular basis because they’re the ones that are going to get the phone calls from their constituents. “There’s a pothole in my neighborhood, this is a problem with trees down in my neighborhood,” and so, I need to hear that, so we can resolve those issues right away. So, having conversations on a regular basis with Board Members certainly is super important to me just so I can get a sense of what the needs are out there.

As you know any big items that I would want us to go back to the future Select Board meeting, have a discussion in the open session so that the board collectively will support big priority issues and that it’s not being directed by one individual or another, because as you know when that happens, people get upset. So, it’s really about engaging them early on about goal setting and then having regular conversations over the course of the work week in order to make sure we’re staying like this.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Derek, one last thing for me, I just want to follow up on something you said it would be your intention to buy a home here in Plymouth, would that be your primary residence? And would you agree to something like that in your contract that you would–

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah. So, when I worked in town five years ago, I actually rented. It would be my goal this time around to commit to purchasing a home and then establishing that as a residency home as well. And to your last question, yeah, absolutely if it makes the board feel more comfortable, I have no problem with putting it in the contract as well.

1:15:05

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, all right. I think I hit on all the questions that we had, but I want to make sure the board members have time to ask any other additional questions. So, I’ll turn it over to Charlie.

Charlie Bletzer:

Hey, Derek, how are you doing? Most of my questions have been answered in economic development, adversities that you overcame, but I had a couple. One of them you just answered it. I had one of the town meeting members and oh by the way, in case you forgot we have 135 members here. So, you got 135 bosses. And the good thing about our town meeting members, a lot of them are very, very active and they pay attention to what’s going on, and it’s a good thing for the town. They can be critical, but they care about the town just like we all do. So, you’ll be getting used to that, you’ll be getting emails and phone calls and everything else, but this one town meeting member called me, and she said, “I just have a question. When he left Plymouth, he didn’t want to commute to Worcester anymore.” And I said, “I don’t think that’s the reason. I think he became a town manager,” which you’ve already answered that you went to Upton, your resume clearly says that. So, I said, “I believe I think you may be buying a home.” You answered that. You and your wife, you’re going to buy a home, and I think that’s going to make a lot of people happy too if you get the job. So, my question is, and I’m going to ask all the candidates, where do you see yourself in four to five years, Derek?

Derek Brindisi:

Where do I see? Well, I would say that my hope is that Plymouth would be my last stop before retiring. I am 47 now. My goal is to retire somewhere between 60 and 62. I love Plymouth for a lot of reasons, and I do believe that I can make an impact in the community over the course of a career. And so, five years is a very short window. In fact, I’ve been knocking for five years. The only reason why I am considering leaving Upton is because to me, Plymouth is truly a place where I see myself and it’s a career opportunity to go back to Plymouth and work with the Select Board leading this community change.

Charlie Bletzer:

I thank you so.

Dick Quintal:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

Yeah, Derek, I have a couple of follow-up questions. Some a little bit more specific, some are more policy oriented. How would you propose balancing development residential which is ongoing, commercial which could be upcoming with important environmental concerns?

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah, that’s a challenging question. Like I had earlier mentioned, to balance environmental questions, let’s focus on the areas that are already been developed and maybe are underutilized because if we focus there then that will help respond to some of the environmental concerns that take place not in just Plymouth, it takes place in every community. There’s a strong voice out there to protect the environment from climate change. So, I would want to focus on underutilized spaces first. That being said, there’s a program called Municipal Vulnerability Preparedness program. It’s a program for the state that every community has the opportunity to be what is called MVP certified. That certification is mostly focused on climate resiliency, but once you become MVP certified, you have an opportunity to go ahead and see project numbers through the program. And what I have seen at least in Central Mass, many of the project dollars are environmentally safe.

So, for example there was a neighboring community that received $300,000 to create green space and to expand their local park. So, what they did with those dollars is that clearly taking trees down and putting on more asphalt. It would force a significant problem to run, but what they use these dollars for is to acquire a permeable asphalt, so it recharges the aquifer beneath them.

1:20:16

Derek Brindisi:

That’s just a small example of things that I think we should think about when we think about development that even if a developer comes in town, what technology is out there that we can require developers to implement that would make it more environmentally sound.

Harry Helm:

Yeah, just following up on that, the next town manager is going to be inheriting a new position, the Climate Sustainability Coordinator, that will report to the Town Manager. How would you interface with that employee, with that manager?

Derek Brindisi:

I first want to know whether or not if this individual has already been assigned to a specific department. And if the answer is no, then given the national conversation about climate change and climate resiliency, I think I would want to interface with that person more as a dotted line almost like an emergency manager as a dotted line to the town manager. I want to say I would want to create some type of down the line with this individual so that I can have regular face-to-face conversations around this issue, because again it’s super important, and I think it’s even magnified in a community like Plymouth being a sea force community.

Harry Helm:

Yeah. Perhaps I wasn’t clear, Derek and somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but it is my belief that that position will report to the Town Manager as being proposed at town meeting.

Charlie Bletzer:

You’re correct. I believe the town manager will be making that hire, that person has not been hired yet.

Derek Brindisi:

That’s my point. I was saying the dotted line, but there has to be a regular interface with the town manager in their position, just because of everything that’s going on nationally and locally regarding climate change, climate resiliency. Those issues are for most communities are in probably top three to five priorities.

Harry Helm:

Okay. Derek, one last question. Could you tell me why you did not originally put your name in the original search when it was advertised?

Derek Brindisi:

Sure. So, I’ve been following the Town of Plymouth for five years. I’m viewing your listing as often as possible. And so, I always said to myself and said to others that it would be my hope to return to Plymouth someday as the Town Manager. Now, there was a period of time where I didn’t think I would ever present something, and then with the transition that has taken place over the fall, the opportunity presented itself. Now, at that time, but this is more of a personal reason, my family situation back in September-October would not have allowed me to be in the timeline of applying. In December, that has changed. I have two young grandchildren that we were primarily kids with this and that no longer is required. So, my wife and I, our youngest son, he’s a freshman in college and my daughter she’s a graduate from Worcester. So, we basically, for the most part (inaudible) now that we don’t have any issues to take care for the grandchildren, but that’s the truth. That just my family situation. I didn’t know how far this fall and then in December, we no longer have applied to assist my son and his fiancé with the children. So, once I had noticed that there was another opening, I knew that Plymouth was where I wanted to be. I just needed to make sure it was the right time and the right place, and that all just fortunately for me fell into place given the circumstances that arose over those times.

1:25:18

Harry Helm:

Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Other board questions? Dick?

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Derek, in Plymouth, we have a height restriction, and I believe it was a town meeting or two ago I wasn’t here where existing sites such as our two industrial parks could go up in height. I believe it was 20 feet, but I’m not positive, and it failed at town meeting. For what reasons, I really don’t know, but I also know that sometimes you got to go find out what the problem was. Sometimes it matters on the way it was explained, because that’s one of the crucial things we’re going to have to figure out in my decision for Town Manager is how we’re going to move forward with economic development. I’m really happy that you touched on goals because that’s one of the things this board first did, and I was persistent on it, and I’ve already started on it in January to pass on to the town manager. We gave quite a list. I think it was in the 30s. I mean, we didn’t expect you to get it all done in a month, but I have to say we prioritize them. One went to town meeting, we got another new position that’ll be starting, which is going to be a grant writer, which was awarded to Tiffany Park in your previous office tenure. I believe you know Tiffany. It was nice to see that come on board, and we’ll see what happens with that. That one’s still at large. I want to thank you for all your time. I know you’ve been sitting in the chair for a little while and this is a big position for the community. We have to take our time, which is why we gave it the amount of time that we did give for this tonight. So, that’s really all I have. Everything I was going to ask was already been asked. So, thank you. Bernie? Well, Bernie, I have one question for you though, do you have an idea roughly how many Town Manager positions are say open in the State of Mass?

Bernard Lynch:

I think right now there are 20 positions open. It comes as a shock, but I actually keep track of this stuff. I think there are 20 positions open right now. And I think there’s another probably 12 to 15 that will be opening up in the next month.

Dick Quintal:

So, there’s a lot of movement?

Bernard Lynch:

There is a lot of movement, yes.

Dick Quintal:

Okay, thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Thank you, Derek, and I appreciate you taking all this time for us. Mine aren’t really that difficult. When you talked about regionalizing certain communities and stuff like that, and you discussed best practices and benchmarks. One of my experiences coming from the nuclear field is that we were always with best practices, benchmarking different areas. Do you see any opportunities just off the top of your head and I know you’re not here, but do you see any opportunities off the top of your head now for regionalizing some kind of best practices and benchmarking in this area?

Derek Brindisi:

I do. One, I have a lot of experience in regionalizing public health, and it was just a grand opportunity the state issued probably two months ago where they identified certain geographic areas around the state where they infuse hundreds of thousands of dollars and even small municipalities to take on a regional public health model. They gave them money for these municipalities to hire inspectors, epidemiologists, administrators. I was surprised to see how much money some of these small municipalities are getting and in return, they have to go ahead and hire the staff, and then they would then go ahead and provide services here in municipalities.

1:30:00

Derek Brindisi:

I’m surprised that Plymouth wasn’t in that conversation, maybe they were. I don’t know what transpired, but I know that Plymouth wasn’t one of those communities chosen, but that’s one way. Everything that’s going on with COVID, that would have been the area that I think that we really could have pursued because it would have given us the bandwidth to be able to work with the board of health in the community, in order to give them the science related that they need in order to make data driven decisions. So, that’s one area.

The other area, I know that we’re exploring when I was in Plymouth five years ago was regional dispatch. A regional dispatch brings hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to a municipality. For example, again, Upton is a smart community. We provided a regional dispatch service to one of our neighboring communities, and we bring $300,000 just through the 911 alone. So, Selectman Cavacco, I think that those are the two areas at the top of my head that we should at least look at and ask the questions, maybe meet with some of our folks in the state delegation to learn more about how we can get involved with some of those opportunities.

Betty Cavacco:

And just one other thing is that you had mentioned being able to do many of your permitting processes online and getting that funded by the CARES Act. However, this whole process goes I’m hopeful that maybe that’s some information that you can provide to our administration because I know that we have some CARES Act money still, and I know that one of the goals of this board was to do exactly what you said and make things easier online with you know permits and things like that. So, I think that’s really important. I know that our billing inspector has been working on it. So, I’m very interested to be able to hear more about that at some point, no matter how this whole thing goes.

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah, I would be happy to talk to the billing inspector and share the information. There are some great software products that are out there, and the one that we use is actually stored from the new web and we’ve only heard good things about it. So, I’m happy to share some information.

Betty Cavacco:

Thank you so much.

Bernard Lynch:

Great! I think that wraps everything up. Derek, thank you for joining us. Any closing comments you’d like to make?

Derek Brindisi:

Well, I want to thank the board and everybody for organizing this evening. I appreciate the opportunity to talk to the board to let them know all the things that I’ve done since I last saw them five years ago, but I just want folks to know that I always have hope that someday I could return to Plymouth. I enjoyed my time in Plymouth. I had to leave because of career opportunity in Upton. And so, it would be great if I could return and work with not only the Select Board but all the different staff members who would create the models and top-notch department staff. So, I look forward to hearing from you all. If I am not the chosen candidate, I wish you all well in the future. My phone is always available if you have any questions regarding the things we talked about today. So, again, thank you so much and look forward to hearing from you.

Bernard Lynch:

Great. Thank you, Derek.

Derek Brindisi:

Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Thank you. All right. Dick, my number of 20 might be a little high. It might be close to 15.

Dick Quintal:

I didn’t write it down, it’s fine.

Bernard Lynch:

Yeah, okay. All right. Need a break? Ready to go?

Dick Quintal:

Yeah.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Chris, who’s our next? I think we have Jen.

Chris Badot:

I have Jen Callahan. Yeah, she’s on her way in now.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Hi, Jen.

Jennifer Callahan:

Hi.

Bernard Lynch:

Good evening.

Jennifer Callahan:

Can you hear me now?

Bernard Lynch:

Yeah. Jen, we can hear you now. Thanks for joining us and I’m going to quickly turn you over to the Chair, and he’ll have all the board members introduce themselves and then we’ll get right into the interview.  All right?

Jennifer Callahan:

Okay. Sounds good.

1:35:00

Dick Quintal:

Welcome, Ms. Callahan.

Jennifer Callahan:

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Dick Quintal:

Ready?

Jennifer Callahan:

I’m as ready as ever. Thank you. You go right ahead.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Hi! My name is Betty Cavacco, and I’m in my second term and I am the Vice-Chair of the Select Board in Plymouth.

Dick Quintal:

Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

Hi! Patrick Flaherty. Nice to meet you.

Jennifer Callahan:

Nice to meet you as well.

Dick Quintal:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

Hi, I’m Harry Helm. I am a relatively recent addition to the Board of Selectmen having been elected last May. And prior to that, I spent many years on the Advisory and Finance Committee.

Dick Quintal:

Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

Jennifer, Charlie Bletzer, very nice to meet you. I’m brand new. I got elected in a special election in August 14^th.

Jennifer Callahan:

Okay, congratulations.

Charlie Bletzer:

So, I’m a newbie. So, very nice to meet you.

Jennifer Callahan:

Nice to meet you as well.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Well, Jennifer, the board has had an opportunity to look at your materials, your resume, your cover letter, and some references or comments that we received from references regarding your background. Perhaps, though, you could just sort of give us a sense of why you’re interested in this position? Why you believe you would be successful?

Jennifer Callahan:

Thank you. And through you, Bernie, to all the members of the board, first of all, I do want to say it is really very humbling that I have been given this opportunity. I mean that sincerely. I’ve spent the better part of about 26, 27 years both in elected and appointed positions in government institutions. And public service is truly at my heart, and I mean that sincerely. I now recognize as I got older but not too old to understand what truly moves me and what do I really love doing. And as you know, I have been an elected school board member where I started out. So, Charlie, I can understand what you might be feeling like now being able to go to a board, that’s called the Select Board. I also served on the Select Board and I also had the opportunity to serve in the House of Representatives for a little over eight years, which was a distinct honor.

But through all of that, I went from the 5, 000-foot level in a piper cub you know claim looking at the landscape below to a 35,000-foot level being in the state house. What I did truly miss when I had been at the state house was that day-to-day kind of opportunity you have to help shape a community and move it forward. So, Plymouth is very, very professionally the right I think fit for me at this time in my career. I have to tell you that I am a first-generation immigrant daughter. My father came here on a different boat that landed a little bit more south not here in Plymouth Harbor, but I have to tell you when I have been in the center and down by the waterfront, I often think about things like that how I have been able to enrich my life to help other people and advocate. So, Plymouth strikes to that core. Behind me, you can see a beautiful painting. My sister is a real consummate artist, and when I told her I had the opportunity to actually interview with all of you, she thought that was just terrific because of the history of creative arts in this community.

Finally, I do think that my professional background allows me the opportunity to work in a large community such as Plymouth. I have had the opportunity to represent over 45,000 constituents in 5 different communities over a large geographic area. This fits my profile in a lot of ways, and I also feel that it’s kind of important to mention that it isn’t my first interest in the Town of Plymouth. I actually applied for an assistant town manager position when I first had left the legislature. I had been a finalist for a deputy position in Natick, and I was looking at larger communities like Plymouth and Natick. I wound up making a decision to go a different route at that time to be the actual administrator, but I hadn’t had the opportunity to get interviewed for that position. And so, that was like back in 2015. So, here I am before you with more experience under my belt and hopefully enough information that gives you a good perception of who I am.

1:40:00

Bernard Lynch:

If you would be the appointed town manager, you’d come in, and you’d be running the municipal organization on a day-to-day basis. Talk to us about what your style looks like? How you do manage your current organization, how you would manage and lead the Plymouth organization? And then I’ll have some follow-up questions to sort of go with that.

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I have a very open-door policy, and I know that sounds cliché to people and a lot of people will say it, but they don’t really abide by it. Oftentimes, much to my own detriment depending on what are the priorities of the day and the emergent priorities that take a place that have not been on someone’s radar. Oftentimes, I will be very much available to department heads. Matter of fact, it’s 24 hours a day, they have my cell phone. I have given them complete understanding that if they need to get in touch with me, they know how to do that. I’m also someone who isn’t there to create friction in a department. I’m there to be as supportive as possible. I look at myself and I know the clear difference between being an elected leader and being a municipal manager, and I will leave many of the different types of roles particularly for policymaking and for directional movement of a community to the elected leaders. I look at my role as trying to help move the government structure forward in tandem with what the goals and objectives are for this board in terms of policy.

So, what I find myself doing is being very much strong advocate of every department that is under the government structure. I learn as much as I can about all of the different important things that come with a department. And so, in that regard there’s nothing below me to learn. I don’t care how we’re going to clean basic facilities in the middle of a pandemic, and then restructure our workforce to make that happen, or if it’s something much more high level in meeting with the finance director to understand how we’re going to face a loss in pilot funding, let’s just say using the Pilgrim Nuclear Plant as a real challenge for the community and making sure you have that dialogue with the department head. So, it’s really trying to both support the needs of the Department Heads and all of the staff and work that way up into not only the budgetary requests but really importantly the strategic plan for each of these departments.

I want you to know that I’ve spent some time doing some research even in a short period of time to get a feel. I think this is your time to evaluate me and hopefully my time also to evaluate the community, and I have been doing that, and we can perhaps explore some of the ways and some of the information I have found. But my style is very much accessible, very open, supportive, and mostly trying to take complex issues that many of our department heads are very skilled at and very professional and experts at take those complex issues and boil them down into something that’s understandable for the public, understandable for the boards that are related to those departments, and most of all somehow come up with a cohesive plan to move that forward, particularly hand in glove with the Board of Selectmen.

Bernard Lynch:

Well, Jen, you opened the door. You said you’ve been doing the research and you have some thoughts regarding the town and the structure, and so that’s something actually that I was just going into. So, I’m interested in what your observations are, what your thoughts are regarding possible restructuring, where might you make some changes, and what’s been your experience in leading organizations through change?

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I mean, the Town of Plymouth has an incredible portfolio attached to it. I’ve served in a Chamber of Commerce as a board director on two different occasions even though I did not own a business, and it was because I understood that interplay in the importance of economic development and vitalization of a thriving economy in a community. However, Plymouth itself just your town hall, the investment that the townspeople made in that town hall is truly remarkable. And in this day and age where you can walk into any community, and you’re brass knuckling over a small investment on a wastewater treatment plant, this town understood the importance of taking a real, true, integral part of its history, the courthouse and meld it with the governance structure of this town. You are to be commended, all of you that have done that.

1:45:01

Jennifer Callahan

And I know that I’ve had the honor in the past of working with a very influential and I call them powerhouse delegation where their eyes were always focused on Plymouth and that of course, includes the legendary Senate President Terry Murray, Vinny deMacedo, your state representative and a state senator for many years, and also Representative Calter. All of those people were very strong advocates for the town. In the investment that the townspeople make in coordination with state delegation. And I know you have two new people not new, newer since I’ve been here, you have Representative Muratore and also Senator Moran who I know are very, very engaged in the community. You can see that through all of their outreach and public outreach efforts that they do.

The investment in research that I have done has indicated to me: one, that your staff are all really looking towards a hopeful time where they will have a good fit for their manager. I’ve had the opportunity to speak with a sergeant in the police force for well over 40 minutes learning a lot about the town. Lee Hartman who is your Acting Director is a wealth of information and long before I got to speak with him, I had heard from a number of people on the outside what a consummate professional he is and I’m sure he’s been serving you very capably at this time of transition.

You have a terrific Finance Director, and you have all the elements that make this town successful, but mostly, I think the leadership of the board wanting to work in concert with all the professional staff tell me that you’re a terrific community to work for and that is what I think I have gleaned from all of the discussions I’ve had and the visits. I’ve been to a number of your municipal buildings. I saw at least 50 parents and their kids ice skating in 24-degree weather on a bright sunny day this past weekend, those are things that show me you are invested in your community, and I can see that, and I can feel it, and you can sense it. So, somebody who has served in public office and also served as a manager and administrator, that’s very important for a professional move.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. What’s been your experience in managing change within an organization? I would agree that there’s great staff, great department heads within the town, but there may need to be some changes in the way that the government functions, there’s always changing needs that require the organization to adapt to those changes. Talk to us about your experience in managing change or managing organizations through a period of change.

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I think aside from the fact that I have been a manager, I don’t want to dismiss my past work prior to ever taking on elected or a hired role in municipal government or state government, I had been a senior quality advisor to the largest employer in Central Massachusetts for a number of years, long before I ever decided to actually seek elected office. And during that time period, I was a certified team facilitator. I was somebody who also was certified in total quality improvement methods in a large healthcare organization, which when you compare large healthcare organizations to large government organizations, there are a lot of similarities. And in fact, in some ways, the parallel is one in which it makes it easy if you have had experience in trying to facilitate change, which is not always everyone’s forte, then you understand how to do it from one organization to another.

So, I have used a number of different processes including having worked very closely with all department heads on a regular basis. We had looked to actually implement key performance indicators, educating staff about what those are, looking at how we can actually mutually do a value analysis to come to an understanding of what that is, but also, I think if you treat departments as much fairly as possible, and with an understanding through planning whether it’s capital planning or budgetary planning, you can move the initiatives of a town forward. I know in your budget this year; you are looking to do a number of things. One, you’re looking to change the way the contracts for IT. It used to be under all the different departments and putting them really under IT.

1:50:02

Jennifer Callahan

That’s an example of an organizational change method that I think is a good example of how with time things do change. During the pandemic in my community, there were a number of things that made us do business differently even to this day. Once we discovered that our library did not have as much foot traffic when we were shut down, one of the things that our librarian director understood and acknowledged is that there was a much higher demand for technology cataloging library and skills. And so, what wound up actually happening is a restructuring to actually bring in a librarian science, a master’s of science person. Who has that skill set, which is vitally important to connecting the community while we continue with this pandemic in ways that the library never had.

So, it’s supporting the department heads for those kinds of initiatives, articulating them to the board and the finance advisory committee and making the case for when those things need to be done. I think most departments understand there are time periods where they’re the focus of attention and other times other people are. In fiscal year ’20, even though we were faced with some daunting potential difficult financial projections from the state, we had been working for more than a year with the Department of Public Works to updating and making radical changes in the compensation plan as well as drafting 21st Century job descriptions. I encountered job descriptions that went back 40 years and never had been changed. Working with a group of 12 members of the DPW facilities areas, we were able to overcome any kinds of concerns that they had, put forward a great plan, and made sure that even during the pandemic we honored that. And so, they understand going forward, there will be other departments that have to take primary importance. So, it’s that give and take, it’s that facilitating those kinds of things, supporting them when you can. I know that there will be a lot of personnel adjustments right away or hiring. I think when you did your publication of the position, you were speaking in the 40s for open positions, speaking with your human resource director. I had gleaned that might be as many as 51 positions. So, it will be a busy first start for the management to make sure these positions where they’re crucially needed are retained as quickly as possible, and those departments are supported in the work that they do.

Bernard Lynch:

If you could just briefly give us a sense of your perspective on local government issues. Tell us what you consider to be the greatest long-term threat the local government is encountering or will encounter and the greatest threat in the short-term that local government in general needs to consider.

Jennifer Callahan:

I think this pandemic has been the greatest challenge to any community. It certainly has turned upside down the way we do government. Look at where we’re here today on a Zoom call doing an interview where we never would have thought of doing that two years ago. When I say it’s been a challenge and a threat, having been a manager facing the barrel of a gun when the state had told us that we were looking at financial shortfalls that were equal and in excess of the years of 2007 and 2009, which I served back-to-back during two major recessions, and we’ve been climbing out of it and then the pandemic hits and then the state says, “We’re so concerned with the amount of people out of work that we’re going to ask and advise communities to anticipate actually reductions in local aid and state aid back to those time periods and then on top of that 20% and 30% more.” You can imagine as a manager looking at that, and saying, “Okay. How are we going to actually work even mid-year before we even know what the revenues are for the state?” And remember the state didn’t even set its budget to many, many months after local municipalities had even though many of us had town meetings that were a little later, elections that were a little later and were conforming to all of these new requirements. So, I think the biggest challenge will still remain, how the community actually weathers that storm, and it’s not just germane to the Town of Plymouth. T

1:55:02

Jennifer Callahan

There has been a lot of money, federal and state, and I know recently you have also through your county treasurer who I actually served with before, Tom O’Brien and forgot about that I saw that you had recently gotten your county award for some federal funding, but when this money actually goes away and if the economy doesn’t continue to rebound and particularly an economy like Plymouth, which has had this huge amount of investment in speaking with some people I’ve learned that you’ve had upwards of over $40 million invested in the downtown along the waterfront, a new wharf, you’ve had dredging in your harbor to bring in bigger boats. This town is so poised well to try to come out of this pandemic if we could only continue to move in that direction, which I think we will. But what still remains to be seen is how quickly everything will return to normal, and whether inflation across the country will stay low enough and people will continue to invest, and our tax collections will stay up. So, I think both the pandemic is the biggest challenge, but it’s also I think the biggest opportunity for government to really focus on how it wants to plan to come out of it and how it will actually set straight the next five to ten years for a community to withstand.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Any questions on this category that any board members want to that I’ve missed? Okay. Let’s move into financial management. Talk to us because you kind of alluded to that a couple of times now with the cuts that people thought might be necessary in 2020 or for 2021. So, clearly, you seem to have your eye on the issue of financial management. So, talk to us about what your financial management or your approach would be to managing the finances of Plymouth? And specifically tie it to what you’ve experienced as a local government manager in your prior positions.

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I mean, one of the things that I think every community wrestles with are things that relate to the core pieces of our budget. We know that we need personnel to actually execute the business of people’s every single day. We know we need teachers, we know we need DPW workers and firefighters and police. I mean, that is the crux of how we make government work. And so, when you talk about people, you’re talking about salaries, you’re talking about benefits, you’re talking about retirements, and pensions, and I am aware that Plymouth is very unique in some of the things that it does offer its employees. I do know that they’re ready to hopefully finalize or with the new manager finalize some collective bargaining agreements that will be very important to continuing to retain good employees to be competitive with neighboring communities with salaries and benefits, but the uniqueness of Plymouth I am aware of is that the beneficence of the town’s people in approving and voting their budgets each year does include I think a very, very supportive benefit structure to their employees. That is not always the case in every community and I think that with time having open dialogue and I know that those kinds of things sometimes take place when someone’s looking at OPEB and which of the other post-employment benefits that a community has. This community has at least $10 million in its stabilization fund for that. We call it a stabilization but trust fund. The community of Oxford has about 5.6 million, very much smaller community but has a healthy sum that’s put away in comparison to how large this community is. So, the goal of things like that are to have open dialogue about how do you look at the employees going forward, how do you make sure that you can sustain those kinds of important benefits that keep your workforce going and make your workforce feel valued? So, I think when I look at a budget, I look at all of the major pieces of it. And here, you can look at almost 74% of the budget is really in the salaries and benefit structures, and then you have 17% or so in some other normal expenses that you would have for running departments. So, you have a very large school district, 155 million of your budget goes to that, about $116 million goes to your actual municipal side.

2:00:06

Jennifer Callahan:

What it shows me is that from what I can glean is that the school district has worked cooperatively with the finance advisory committee, the management structure and this board in keeping good quality schools, you’ve done a lot for the infrastructure. I know that they’re at the moment with increasing enrollment and one high school and decreasing enrollment and another across the commonwealth enrollments are going down, so I understand that there’s an evaluation for looking at all the buildings, and going forward how they’ll structure it maybe in the next year or two. So, you have a lot in which you want to continue to maintain and for me, looking at a budget each year, you’ve got to look at what your revenues are coming in, what are your places to go when you have emergencies. I’m really pleased to see you have a number of stabilization accounts in this community that has been the name of my game for every community I have been in is emphasizing fiscal conservancy but in the way of putting things for a savings for a rainy day. Most communities have one stabilization account. You have a general stabilization account about $12 million from what I understand, but yet you have a number of other ones. You have a pavement management account, you have facilities account, you have your OPEB and you have the Pilgrim Decommissioning Account. All of those netted together are important.

I do see something that I do like in this community, and that is understanding when to go to those places of fiscal support and when to shy away from them. I think as you go forward, I would do the same thing that I do in my community now, which is put as much money as we can to savings, but making sure we are not being penny-wise and pound-foolish. It takes money to run a government. You don’t want to be overkilled with it, but at the same time you don’t want to be so far below what the mark is that you can’t actually support the programs and services that are vital to people. So, I think looking at the actual policies that you have in place are important.

In the community I currently am in, they didn’t have financial policies, management policies and procedures both of how the departments operate as well as how they’ll actually be an integral part for generating revenues and receipts for the community. We have that now. We did that with a $20,000 community compact grant. We had another compact grant in which we just were informed that we had received the Government Finance Officers Administrator’s Award for budget documents for the first comprehensive budget document award. And so, that is taking a community that did not have things such as that to a different level. And it’s showing that it’s paying terrific dividends back to the community because all of our financial indicators are not only a little bit improved, they’re vastly improved, and it’s allowed us to do so much more in deferred capital maintenance. So, much more in terms of investing in capacity building within the budget. So, we have positions that we never had before, because we can afford them, and we know we can afford them with budget projections going out five and seven years, and that’s what you have to do. It’s an essential piece of being able to plan, budget conservatively and also leverage resources to grow the ability within your budget on an annual basis to meet new initiatives and award to build capacity in particular departments.

Bernard Lynch:

Jen, you mentioned that the indicators have been heading in the right direction. Very briefly, where were you now in terms of when you started, where were you on reserves? Where are you now?

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. So, this community when I came, I actually thought it was an error that I was printing off from the Department of Revenue or DLS, Divisional Local Services. Their spending had been such that they had basically burned through about 4.5 million of their overall reserves in their stabilization account. When I came in through the door, it was about $287,000 for a $50 million community organization. That was terrifying to see that. Because that means that if the community had any major catastrophic event or even if the pandemic had hit earlier, I think we would have been hard-pressed to be able to withstand that.

2:05:01

Jennifer Callahan

Having said that, the Department of Revenue looks to communities to meet a particular standard and they typically like to see the stabilization account for general stabilization in the 5% range. I’m happy to say that we will be in that several million dollars now to the positive to be able to have that in the community. Looking at capital spending, the free cash certifications were so dismal in the Town of Oxford until myself and the financial team and I came together. I’m sure this board understands that you know free cash is not free. It’s the way that you actually try to maximize what you have in receipts at the end of the year that you did not use or that money that you’ve chased down for reimbursement or grants, you’ve leveraged all of those things.

I can say again unequivocally that the community had always been delayed in certifying its free cash, so there was no way of knowing when you started planning your budget what you might have available for capital infrastructure and planning. We created a five-year capital plan, we’ve had record early certifications for free cash, working with our assessor treasurer and our finance director and using those standards now that are in place. We now have been averaging anywhere between 2.5 million and over 3.2 million for annual certifications, which then allows us to plan very methodically about what we are going to make improvements for our capital needs, and then make sure that the following year we can do as well as we did the previous year. So, it’s a combination of leveraging both grant funding, it’s making sure that if we have opportunities to offset certain types of expenditures, we can do that.

My department heads know that I’ll give them a very gentle reminder at the beginning of April to make sure as we approach May and June, make sure that anything that’s owed to us in terms of reimbursement for grant opportunities from the state or from any local foundation that we make sure that we get those reimbursements in because all of that then gets credited to our bottom line, which helps us overall be able to stabilize the planning for the upcoming year.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. One last financial question from me, OPEB liability, that is like the arguably we talked about the great threats facing the local government that’s right up there depending on one’s perspective, but how have you dealt with OPEB liabilities in your communities?

Jennifer Callahan:

So, I think one of the best ways you can do that is through having a structured financial policy. You have a great bond rating, but I know that it could even be better, but I’m sure that they look at the liability. When you talk about a one-billion-dollar liability, that’s huge, but the Town of Plymouth is huge, has a lot of moving parts to it. You don’t expect necessarily to be in that realm, that’s pretty high for a community, and part of it is looking to show commitment on a regular basis that you will put money towards that liability. I understand that the town is doing that. I understand that another way to actually help move that liability down from such a high figure is to look at making tweaks to the overall benefit structures. That would be helpful when they go, and they look at trying to ascertain where that liability will be.

From what I understand, there have been some tweaks to that for future employees, which actually speaks well to those people who would be assessing where that liability would fall for the town in future years. I understand that you could have had savings of up to maybe perhaps 43 million off of that 1 billion, but it’s still 1 billion. So, you can keep working on that, but the big thing here is putting money in on a regular basis, not necessarily putting huge sums but putting it in on a regular basis shows commitment to the bonding authorities and to those who actually determine the liability that the town is committed over time to trying to address that. I would want that to continue because it shows good resiliency on the part of the community financially.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Any questions on finance that board members have?

2:10:00

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. One of the ways that communities often look to solve any financial stresses that they have, is economic development. Of course, there’s a balancing part to that as well. What do you see is the role of the Town Manager in promoting economic development? Can you give us some examples from your current or past experiences that illustrate what that role would look like in the Town of Plymouth?

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I think I mentioned before that I have worked hand in glove with a regional chamber of commerce and had done that on workforce development and also tourism. Those were two areas even going back to when I was a selectman that I really you know felt I had not only a particular interest, but I think I had a good understanding of how that was in a heritage corridor where I grew up and where I was living, a national heritage corridor and I know that the Town of Plymouth has something like over 300, the municipality has over 300 acres that are designated as a national heritage sites. And so, for me, I think that Plymouth has a very unique opportunity and a history. Okay? Everybody says you’re America’s Hometown. That absolutely is palpable in everything that is done on the main streets and all the way out to the periphery where you actually put some new development in. One of the things that’s unique about Plymouth that we don’t have necessarily in some of the gateway cities or larger communities that were very industrial revolution based is that you don’t have these Mammoth Mills and very failing infrastructure that’s extremely costly to figure out how to either remove or to repurpose.

I know that you’ve done the Cordage Mill, and it’s still in the process, and you’ve done phenomenal work on taking a pre-existing large-scale facility that served a real historic valuable economic purpose in the town, but now, you also have vast areas of open land. You have just an incredible punch sheet, I call it, for master planning when you look at all of the wonderful things that the community has. And so, it becomes a real balancing act of trying to say, “Okay. How do we bring in more commercial and business development and how do we balance that with mammoth developments that are taking place in the community?” I would say that you have to do that with I think a very planned approach of working closely not only with your area chamber of commerce, but I understand you also have a regional economic development foundation in which some members of the board in the past have served and even the manager has served as a trustee in the past. So, I think the same way that I do that outreach and coordination with the director for planning and economic development and like I said, you’ve got a gem of a person. I can see him down there in the bottom of my screen, Lee Hartman, who knows everything about Plymouth and understands both the constraints and the needs as you’re going forward.

I would see my role in working very closely with that department, in working very closely with looking at what are the impediments. Is it something that if we had a sewer water line or a new water treatment facility, that we could actually do more development for commercial business? I understand you’re a bio-ready community, which is fabulous. You’re at gold status not quite platinum status, but maybe you work with the board of health on coming up with some of the regulations that make it even more palatable for a business to locate there. I mean, there are so many things that the Town of Plymouth has going forward. Aside from lots of acreage, you also have a large decommissioned nuclear facility with like 1500 acres surrounding it. I know that they are going through what will be an eventful process for the community have to try to work with the business to see, are they going to hold on to all the land? Is it something that they’ll think about bequeathing to the town? I think those dialogues are going to be very important. I don’t think from what I can glean that that has been decided yet. I think you also have some real opportunity in some areas of town where you have a very large swath of property that doesn’t have a clear title, that’s in tax title.

2:15:03

Jennifer Callahan:

That’s an area that I have been very effective in, particularly in the town that I’m in right now, working with some really good legal firms and also, the treasure collector to actually turn around and bring in one year $985,000 in uncollected taxes, and it wasn’t just through a land auction. Over 400,000 were brought just through actually working very diligently and being able to move those properties from non-payment into payment status. So, I think there’s some real very intriguing opportunities. I think with all the work that has been done and the investment that has been done particularly in the downtown waterfront area, I think you’re ripe for being able to generate across the globe when people are going to be really wanting to continue to break free of this pandemic to want to visit beautiful places. And so, let’s not dismiss the creative economy and the blue economy that you have. It’s all of that together. I mean, that’s why I say it’s such a dynamic place, and there’s so many great opportunities to work with state and federal lawmakers to help figure out ways in which to leverage financial support and grant opportunities that may or may not be being taken care of at this moment, but certainly there’d be opportunities to make those points heard and hopefully leverage some more of that support.

Bernard Lynch:

How would you balance the residential and commercial development with environmental concerns? What’s been your experience in doing that?

Jennifer Callahan:

Well, I think everyone understands there are laws that protect not just open spaces, but also environmentally fragile areas. I do understand that aside from being the largest community and having all of this open space and this huge number of miles of coastline, you have over 365 ponds. You have the second-largest freshwater aquifer, that all indicates something that really needs to be considered whenever you’re doing development. And you have state laws too. Working with the Massachusetts Department of Environmental Protection is something that would be very important as well as Department of Conservation & Recreation. Particularly if you have something that the community thinks would be a good thing, but yet it’s in what would consider to be a fragile, ecological area then you need to have that conversation early on and with frequency, because then it’s going to be a matter of trying to get some movement in a direction that if there can be compromise to allow a certain amount of development then let’s see how we do that, and what would you have to do or allow the developer to do to make that happen. But certainly no one is going to advocate that. We just not abide by the standards and the laws that have been put in place to protect certain places but there are many things in the toolkit nowadays for developers to do to actually make improvements and to actually perhaps even protect areas even better than they have done in the past. And I think that would be a way of showing both an openness and also an expectation with developers that it’s a give and take. Also, sometimes it might mean the development can’t be as big, because we want to protect an area but yet, we want to welcome them with a smaller development proposal.

Planning Boards are really instrumental in that, your conservation and recreation people are important. I do understand that with this record number of housing permits that are taking place in this town, that is a tall order for any economic development or building or land management department to handle just the number of requirements that a standard permit would have. In the past, they didn’t have so many things. I was talking with Lee about that. Nowadays, there are many requirements and so, you actually need people within that department to go out and inspect these large-scale projects not just for construction anymore but are they meeting the requirements that the planning board have put down that is specific to this particular permit. So, I do understand too that the town takes that very seriously and has a whole inspector division that’s geared towards that, and I found that unique but I found it to be unique in a good way because it shows the town is committed to wanting to make those improvements in a way that also sustains the environment that’s around it.

2:20:15

Bernard lynch:

Great. Board questions at this point with the economic development? Charlie? You’re muted.

Charlie Bletzer:
Okay. Sorry about that. Like I said, I’m the new guy, getting back to that last statement about the permitting process. One thing we have a problem is and the complaints that I’ve heard and other board members have too is the permanent process. It’s confusing, it takes a long time, people come and they got to jump through hoops, they get projects done. That’s something that we have to do a much better job. How would you accomplish that as the Town Manager?

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I know in two communities; I’ve launched online permitting for this very reason. I think the more complex that a project gets, the more that it’s imperative to have easy access and timely sharing of information from one department to another, because we know when we have these large-scale economic development projects, they touch a number of areas that are going to be important for communication and coordination. In the community that I currently I’m at, we have what we call Tech Review in which we have all of the major players that would fundamentally be reviewing a plan at any stage later in the process. We have them do that very early in the process to meet with developers, to look at the scale, to look at concerns early on so that they understand what these department heads with their professional expertise would be looking at. It may be the police chief or the fire chief that wants to talk about the things that are going to be significant to them related to the development. Whether it’s public safety, and traffic flow or whether it’s accessing a building and a huge development project with a fire truck, and being able to turn around an apparatus and fight a potential large fire that could break out in a major distribution warehouse that’s 300,000 square feet. Those things are going to be important for people to actually come together.

So, we have a Tech Review which is very, very helpful and oftentimes developers realize early on what other things that they’re going to need to have to make the project go forward, and then by the time it gets to the planning board or let’s just say it’s in a special unique circumstance that would have to go before zoning board, what it means is that the developer is ready to actually really present. So, it minimizes or cuts down on the numerous excessive types of visits before a board because they’re meeting the requirements and they’re being shepherded by some of the professionals. And then of course, the board gets the benefit of having a much more advanced proposal before them rather than sending them back to the drawing board over and over again. Online Permitting, tech Review components, I said I did research, but I don’t know everything about the way the department works, but I’m sure they have some measures in place to try to help address that. But that’s how I would try to see. First of all, how it is and where are the log jams. I am a process improvement person. So, I do like to look at the process and say, “Okay. Maybe if we put this kind of resource here or we reverse the way something is done, will it actually make improvements,” but you can’t do that until you have dialogue with the department and understand the true process.

Charlie Bletzer:

Well, that’s one process that we have to improve on. Thank you.

Jennifer Callahan:

Okay. I’m putting it down.

Bernard Lynch:

Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Yes. Jen, thank you for joining us. A question, I know that you said you worked with Chamber of Commerce with your economic development. Have you ever worked with a community that had both the Chamber of Commerce and a business improvement development organization?

Jennifer Callahan:

I have, but not in my community I represented. So, I do and am aware of how development commissions typically work. However, some are much more successful when I say that and some are not as successful as a Chamber of Commerce might be. An area Chamber of Commerce is looking at a large regional area but the Town of Plymouth is so large, I can only imagine not having attended that.

2:25:06

Jennifer Callahan:

It should be a primary focus for the Chamber of Commerce, but in a community that has a development commission or a foundation, you would also want to see where there’s overlap and where there is potential sharing of both vision and priority project making so that you have the ability to have the town have that voice. Is there something in particular, Betty, that you think is not working good in the Town of Plymouth right now between those kinds of organizations? I just asked because I–

Betty Cavacco:

That’s a loaded question for me, so but one of the things that the way I look at it is that we are America’s Hometown, and I want us to lead and not follow. And that’s important, I think, for the town as a whole in every aspect of everything that they do. Now I’ve had conversations with business owners, that they do go and look at best practices in different communities. I know Hyannis House has a pretty lively business improvement development in some of the other communities around here. Plymouth doesn’t have one. I think some of the businesses are looking to have one. I mean, it doesn’t matter to me as long as we can make everything for our businesses successful, and I’m not saying that it has to be one or the other. I’m more wondering if putting them both together to have both would be successful for this town. I think there’s a lot of things that you know we leave behind. Like I said, the big thing for me is best practices, benchmarking and taking a look at those kinds of things. I’m from the nuclear industry, so that’s how we always did business. So, for Plymouth, I want the best of the best for us moving forward.

Jennifer Callahan:

Can I just follow up quickly, Bernie? I appreciate you extending that conversation. It gives me a better idea of what you were sort of striving to have me answer. I was answering it more from if there was a development commission that the town actually was spearheading, and I don’t have that in the Town of Oxford. But I do have a business association that works closely with the town and actually on several projects particularly for downtown and business owners has been closely linked. So, I think that’s important to have particularly with the amount of businesses that you have downtown. And if you don’t, it’s something definitely that should be explored.

Bernard Lynch:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

Hi, Jennifer, this might be a little bit off the track of commercial development or economic development, but you did talk about residential development and developers. So, I’d like to know your thoughts on the use by developers of the 40 B to, I don’t want to say bypass, but to basically those niceties that you mentioned, the cooperation with developers are not necessarily totally the past history of Plymouth. So, I’d like you to talk about 40 B as it relates to residential development, and also your thoughts on affordable housing. I know it’s a little bit off the track of economic development.

Jennifer Callahan:

I think it’s actually spot on, and I appreciate it, Selectman Helm. 40 B is something that particularly for fast-growing residential communities with a lot of open space. It is oftentimes been used more as a sledgehammer to force communities into potentially large developments that they’re not quite ready for. One of the things that I think most even lawmakers didn’t anticipate years ago when 40 B was passed, everybody supports the need for affordable housing, and I guarantee you that every one of you as elected officials in the Town of Plymouth want the next generation to be able to live and grow up and raise their families there. Having said that, affordableness of housing is absolutely necessary when it becomes a high demand area. You have to start thinking, where is your workforce going to live? If you have a very service hospitality industry, you can just look down to the cape where there is no housing for the people to work in the places that everyone wants to vacation to.

2:30:09

Jennifer Callahan:

And I think for here, 40 B has been recognized as oftentimes not really understanding the perspective of the local municipality. Having said that, there are some tools that were originally put out for municipalities to take advantage of when they needed to say, “Time out. We’re not ready for this. We can’t handle this type of growth. Our school district can’t handle it. Our infrastructure can’t handle it.” Those sort of stop gap measures were I think many people thought they were going to be much more effective for municipalities. I am aware that this town has a glam provision already in place for two years that gave the community sort of a pause from being able to have to entertain a number of proposals at this time. But I still believe that that 10% that they put every community at is a really, really tall order. So, one of the things that I have identified because we’re going through this in the Town of Oxford as well. We have three proposals that are being put before us. I would dare say that every municipality across the commonwealth who has open space and has a certain amount of infrastructure get ready to buckle down, because the federal government is making an enormous amount of money available for developers who are interested in doing affordable housing.

What that means is that you will have many people knocking at the door to try to actually get their project done as quickly as possible to take advantage of those federal dollars. One of the things that this town continues to want to try to do, and I think you’ve got that coming from your planning department is to continue to make the case that the town has a number of projects that they know continue to be able to reach a glam score that would allow them to sort of put a hold on it. But I think it’s worth having a great discussion with the area legislators because one of the things I did discover as a municipal manager is that the state says, you can qualify a large number of parcels of land to give yourself reprieve from developers if it’s not buildable. So, if a municipality owns a cemetery, that’s considered not buildable. But if a private organization, a foundation owns a cemetery, that is somehow considered buildable, which we know nobody is going to build on a cemetery. High-pressured gas lines, we know nobody can build on a high-pressure gas line by law, but yet the state doesn’t allow a community to incorporate that as non-developable land.

If you have APR land, Agriculturally Preservation Restricted land, in which the state actually helps the community buy the land to prevent it from being developed into perpetuity. That, my friends, can’t even be considered as part of the overall scoring of space that can never be developed. So, if those can’t be considered into a score, what other things are they not including? So, that puts the communities at a severe disadvantage. It’s like saying, if you can come up with a perfect score, but by the way, all of these places we know you can’t develop on, we’re not going to allow you to include in that score. That’s terrible for communities. It puts us on a non-level playing field. So, I would love and already have had discussions long before I got here with the chairman of the housing committee at the state house and I would love to have discussions with your senator and your representative about how can we perhaps put together and craft legislation that just makes it fair. Nobody thinks that’s fair. I don’t think it’s fair. Even as a lawmaker, I wouldn’t think it was fair. Don’t set the community up for false pretense that they have an opportunity to stop something or have met the merit of what they require, and then say, “We’re not going to allow you to do that.” So, that’s an example of 40 B and my knowledge of that, Harry. So, I just wanted to delve into that I’m quite aware of it and working with those kinds of developers require a lot of concerted effort on the part of the municipality and local leaders especially the zoning board, but Boards of Selectmen do oftentimes get invited to look at locally initiated projects, and whether they improve but then approve but most of it is done at the zoning board level.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. We’re all set here. Let’s move on to personnel management. If you could briefly talk to us about the manner in which you motivate employees and hold them accountable.

2:35:08

Jennifer Callahan:

Well, one of the things that I would say is that I delight in being able to share the accomplishments of the people who work every day in town hall and across all the different municipal buildings. One of the things that I have really strived very hard to do, even during the pandemic is to bring a sense of oneness to the community, and the way that you do that with employees is you make sure you do not only recognize them, but you provide shared opportunities for people to see one another. It isn’t just about having department heads come to department head meetings, it’s also about meeting with department heads in a way that allows them to feel that you care about things that are important to them in their work life.

I have not only sponsored but have made it a point to hold staff appreciation days and picnics. We have had right before the pandemic had two very wildly popular with a very high attendance of all employees and their spouses for a holiday gathering that never existed before. Looking at how do you inspire the workforce; we give recognition to all new employees. I have announcement dates where we get together, and we have ice cream social where these department heads from other places get to meet in a staggered way because some employees eventually going to have to communicate with people outside their department, and so we recognize that. We give you know employee Outstanding Employee of the Year awards now, we never did do that. We recognize how hard people do work and make sure that we give that a claim. I would say as manager, I’ve incorporated that into the budget process. I had looked at the manager’s budget for this year and I do see that in the area of recognition and the like, it was about $750. I would want to as manager be somebody who would make improvements in that area. And not just for large scale things, it’s also about having those opportunities when a department is doing an incredible job who just had a very difficult situation that they had to go through that might have been very challenging, that’s when you need to step in and be there and break bread with people and make them feel supported.

The biggest way that I find that all of that enhanced support works as a manager is by giving people the credit that they so justly deserve when they work together as a team. That is really the way that I operate. You can look at my meetings and when I give my manager’s report, it isn’t about me, and it isn’t about that moment. It’s about all the work that gets done by all of the employees to come to bear a very important milestone. And whether it’s a grant or whether it’s finishing a major project, however it’s done it’s all of those things, and it’s those things that are done together collectively. And I really believe that. I acknowledge the employees for that. I have had employees who worked for the town that I currently am in that had left the community before I came and came back in a different higher-level capacity. I was able to attract them back for a particular role, and they will tell you it’s like night and day. The difference between a really good manager that understands how to support personnel should be one in which it’s considered to be a primary focus, because that’s why they call you a manager, you’re managing personnel. So, I do know that I have been given a lot of feedback by people that it has been an extraordinary change and people feel very well-supported.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. What’s your approach to and your experience in collective bargaining?

Jennifer Callahan:

That’s a great question. So, I have a unique background in the sense that I’ve been on both sides of a negotiating table. I have been somebody who had listened to one of the higher levels in a statewide nurse’s union years ago, because one of the things I did do for a number of years was I was a step-down orthopedic trauma nurse and a public health nurse. But before I ever went into public office, I have had an opportunity to be elected into a state board that advocated for major policy and government policy legislative initiatives that would help protect nurses who work throughout the commonwealth.

2:40:12

Jennifer Callahan:

I’ve also been in an organization hospital-based organization where I’d have done labor management meetings, advocating for the important positions of people working at a bedside. Having said that, albeit being on our school board, I also was the first person on a school board to advocate for doing interest-based bargaining and got the contracts, which had typically taken long time to be approved and usually we go into the next fiscal year with memorandums that still weren’t articulated or approved. Doing interest-based bargaining led to a really great opportunity for training of school administrators and school officials, and we got a record set for the quickest contract by bringing mutual concerns to the table.

As a manager, I have negotiated a number of contracts both police, fire. I do not have a unionized DPW but I was going to say that everywhere I’ve gone, dispatchers, professional employees those kinds of things I find that my approach to collective bargaining is one in which when you show up at the table, there has to be mutual trust on both sides. You can get so much done, and you can move and advance the interests of which is important for both sides to validate what the major concerns are for language changes in the working conditions that people have and also validating and finding ways to meet what the current markets are for remunerating people. If you have trust from the moment you walk in that door, you have an ability to not have any obstacle. I have never had an obstacle in all the years that I’ve done collective bargaining and that stands true to the number of contracts that I’ve already just recently been able to negotiate.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great. Thank you. Shifting gears, we’re getting near the end here of our time. So, when the board brought us on to help with this search, we had the opportunity to speak with all the board members and a constant theme that came through from all the board members was the necessity of a town manager who will work to improve communication with residents and improve services to residents is one of the highlights of their criteria in choosing a town manager. Can you tell us how you would go about doing that and how you would become effectively a member of the community?

Jennifer Callahan:

So, there are a lot of ways to be a member of the community. Sometimes it means that you’re actively out having coffee at a local coffee shop with people to not only introduce yourself but to be a regular thriving member of the community. Sometimes it’s about doing very conscientious things. So, when I came in as manager, I noticed that we had a number of parking spaces that were up close to the building. They were always filled up with employees, and so we started a customer service initiative in which all the first lanes of the parking lot would be saved and left open for actual residents to come in and do business. It’s sometimes those small things that mean you’re outreaching to the public that means a lot to them. Looking at the towns that I’ve served in, I’ve launched newsletters that come with information from the manager’s perspective. What I mean by that is management perspective not the managers. So, we have wonderful opportunities to share with the public the important things that go on in a department. Oftentimes, I find department heads just are so humble and they take for granted that everyone knows what goes into defining a tax rate from an assessor’s point of view or how the process works when you’re talking about collections for outstanding licenses and how to get people to understand the process of filing once they’ve changed a car, and they need a new plate, and they need the new registration and all of that kind of stuff. So, I find that if we do newsletters, we have launched a very serious campaign for social media that is really very much directional to get information out to the public without overloading them. Looking at the importance of prioritizing what those messages are. We had a board in front of our town hall that was from the 1940s in which to get a message out to the public which typically that was the only way to do it for a number of years.

2:45:12

Jennifer Callahan:

We had to send out our chief maintenance person with letters on the marquee board, which were all different sizes, and it would be kind of comical when you would see it, but that was the one message or maybe squeezed out two messages in the most abbreviated terms, that was a way that the town was using leverage on a visual type of thing that was out in front of the town hall. Through both the grant effort and the design efforts to make it a very historically appropriate, beautiful high-resolution sign that could be changed electronically, we now have something that represents the beautifulness of the building with the steep replicas of a slate roof and with the ironworks and all of that so that now we have a quick way to correspond with the public.

So, through social media, through direct visual outreach, through newsletters, I’ve totally revamped the way that we actually had all our town meeting documents, Bernie because people needed to understand what they were going to do at town meeting. We have open meetings so that’s a little different too. We have a representative town meeting government, so you would want people to come prepared. Oftentimes an open town meeting sometimes it’s the first time anybody ever came. And so, you want to give them the crash course but in a way that’s meaningful to them. So, we’ve done all of those things in taking some very archaic types of communications and changed them.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Again, we’re running out of time here, but in terms of would you become a resident of the town if you were appointed town manager?

Jennifer Callahan:

Absolutely! I was visiting with my husband this past weekend, and let’s put it this way, if I had become the assistant town manager several years ago, there would have been no reason why I would have left. No reason, I’d like to be like Chief Bradley but I won’t be able to spend 40 years here like he does before he retires, but I certainly would have no hesitation to move here.

Bernard Lynch:

And what does your relationship look like with the Select Board if you were appointed? That’s our final question. So, talk to us just how you envisioned working with the Select Board.

Jennifer Callahan:

Well, I think the first thing would be sitting down with each board member to find out what is their preferred communication style and frequency. I obviously would love to work with the board that understands that it’s got this wonderful collective role to try to move the community forward, and I would want to make sure that each selectman feels at different time periods they have the ability to speak with me all the time, access me to perhaps inform me of things that are important but make sure also that the overall direction of the board is being well positioned and well thought of.

I would work very closely with the Chairman. I mean, that is what a manager should be doing and the chairman is working very closely with the individual board members. Having said that, it should be a cooperative dynamic relationship. It should be one that’s open and flexible. And I think finally, it should be one that works in concert with the Chairman of the Board to help provide both the board the direction but the manager with also specific directions. Goals and objectives from a board are extremely important. It helps set the tone, set the expectations and I would love to do that with this board.

Bernard Lynch:

Great. Board questions of things I’ve missed. Okay. Harry?

Harry Helm:

Thanks, Bernie. A couple questions, Jennifer. The next town manager will hopefully it’s going to spring town meeting, have a climate sustainability coordinator to hire that will be reporting to the town manager. How would you utilize, supervise, work with a climate sustainability coordinator?

Jennifer Callahan:

Well, first of all, I would look at what the job description is and that should be setting of the goal posts of what you’re going to be expecting from this position.

2:50:04

Jennifer Callahan:

I can only imagine that once working with the Human Resource Director and refining that and working with the departments that have been wanting to have a climate sustainability coordinator that we’d glean the most essential pieces that are perhaps missing in the way that the townspeople are hoping to look at how the community can address climate change, and also address the aspects of environmental impact that’s taking place. So, I think first, you have a very clear job description. Second, meet with the departments and the staff that are most vested in this, and that want to see this happen in this position move forward. And then what you would do is set the expectations of what are some goals and objectives that the position will have from the very beginning and then have check-ins with that person to see how things are moving and get updates and make them a viable component of what I imagine probably will be under the planning development and conservation area, but I could be wrong. That area is where I would start and that’s how you would go forward.

I am very familiar on this, Harry, so you know that with development of hazard mitigation plans and municipal vulnerability planning, and those are essential in every community whether you have a coastline a lot of pawns infrastructure, dams, rivers. So, I feel very up to speed on those kinds of things, but this position would be one in which I would want to give feedback as well to the board on what their expectations may be for this position

Harry Helm:

Thanks! One other question, you did not originally put your name in for the original search group that went to the committee and you recently did. Can you explain to us why you did not originally put your name in for this position?

Jennifer Callahan:

Actually, I can. I actually had been very interested in it and had dialogued in advance that I was interested in actually putting my name forward. I have had an event that has taken place in my life with a sibling right around the time that the application was due in which I learned that I had a sibling who has a very advanced form of cancer. And so, needless to say, at that time, family was first for me and that is the only reason that that didn’t take place, but the interest was there. It was expressed and then like anything, fate had strange way of interacting. So, that has come to a more stable level but not to say that that wasn’t something that was completely not expected and very difficult to focus on. So, that is the only reason, Selectman Helm.

Harry Helm:

Thank you, Jennifer.

Bernard Lynch:

Dick? Did you have a question?

Dick Quintal:

Yeah. As you may realize, if you were chosen the position, the assistant town manager is empty and according to our charter unless it’s really changed, which is it will be our appointment or whoever’s appointment. Are you looking for somebody with finance or procurement or labor relations, and you can’t say all of them? What are the good qualities that you’d be looking for in your assistant?

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. To tell you honestly, Mr. Chairman, I think the first thing that I would want to do is really glean from department heads and staff what did they think was missing from the position that was previously filled. How could I make improvements to help make that position even more effective? Because again, it’s not just about being the right hand of the manager. The manager’s right hand is being supported by a whole number of people other than the assistant town manager. So, I would want to find out what was working and what wasn’t working. I’m not saying there wasn’t anything working because I really don’t know that for a fact, but I would want to find out for myself what would be the most important qualities. Like I said, it may not have a lot to do with finances, but it may have much more to do with employee and staff personnel and other skills with regards to project management and coordination. It could be communications with residents on a regular basis because I know my office has a great deal of that as well.

2:55:08

Jennifer Callahan:

So, I would want to find out what that is and get the best compliment and make sure that it’s going to fit the needs of the community and that I would do as a top priority.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Thank you, Bernie.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. I think we’re out of time here, Jen. If you have any closing comments, we’ll let you tell you that. And then we’ll move on.

Jennifer Callahan:

Sure. I just want to say thank you for allowing me the opportunity to meet with you. Again, I want to impress to you that it certainly would be a distinct honor and privilege to serve the great beautiful community of Plymouth which by every account is definitely America’s Hometown. Again, I know this is not an easy decision for you. I hope that you find that my skill set is the right blend and the types of background that I have might prove to be well suited for the community. I do want to say to you, I wish you the very best in making this decision. I know it’s not an easy one, but I know that the townspeople will be in good hands once you make that decision and I know that the employees I’m sure through this transition will be looking forward to it as well. So, congratulations on getting to this step and thank you again. And I look forward to hearing from the board and having the opportunity to work with you. Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Thank you, Jen.

Jennifer Callahan:

Thank you. I will depart now. Okay. Bye-bye.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Chris, you’re there?

Chris Badot:

Yes, sir.

Bernard Lynch:

Board, ready to move for the last interview?

Dick Quintal:

Yes.

Bernard Lynch:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

I would just like to request a five-minute break, please.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Okay.

Harry Helm:

Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Okay.

Betty Cavacco:

Muted, Charlie.

Chris Badot:

And you’re live.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Welcome back.

Bernard Lynch:

Chris, I think our next candidate is ready.

Chris Badot:

Jennifer, she’s on her way in.

Bernard Lynch:

Good evening, Jennifer. You’re muted. Can you hear us?

Jennifer Phillips:

Okay, there we go.

Bernard Lynch:

All right. Good evening.

Jennifer Phillips:

Hi there.

Bernard Lynch:

Thanks for being patient as we go through this process. I’m going to quickly turn you over to the Chair, and then he’ll introduce the board members to you.

Jennifer Phillips:

Terrific!

Dick Quintal:

How you doing Jennifer? Welcome.

Jennifer Phillips:

Hello there. I’m trying to set, so I can see all of you. All right. I can only see one of you at a time, but that’s all right.

Bernard Lynch:

Up in the right-hand corner under view, there should be a gallery view.

Jennifer Phillips:

I’m on a iPad, so it’s different.

Bernard Lynch:

Oh, okay. All right.

Jennifer Phillips:

That’s okay.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay.

Dick Quintal:

All right. My name is Dick Quintal, I’m the chairman. Ms. Cavacco? Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Hi, my name is Betty Cavacco, I’m the vice-chairman.

Jennifer Phillips

Hello.

Dick Quintal:

Charlie? You’re muted. There you go.

Charlie Bletzer:

Jen, sorry about that. I’m Charlie Bletzer, and I’m the newest member of this board. It’s very nice to meet you.

Jennifer Phillips:

Nice to meet you too.

Dick Quintal:

And Harry?

Harry Helm:

Hi, Jennifer! Harry helm here. I’m not the newest but a new member. I was elected past May. My background in the town is many years on the advisory and finance committee.

Jennifer Phillips:

Great! Lovely to meet you.

Dick Quintal:

Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

Hi, Jennifer, nice to meet you. My name is Patrick Flaherty.

Jennifer Phillips:

Hello.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great. Well, Jennifer, again, thank you for being here, and one you’ve had an opportunity now to meet all the members. They’ve had a chance to review your resume, your cover letter, the comments that we received from your references. They have a sense of who you are and what you’ve done. Perhaps you could just talk to us about why you’re interested in the Town of Plymouth, and why you believe that your experience would make you successful here.

Jennifer Phillips:

Great. Well, thank you very much for inviting me to be a finalist for your Town Manager position. I’m just super excited to be here and really excited about the Town of Plymouth. I really feel after 30, 35 years in local government, I love this profession. I feel so blessed to have found such a fantastic profession where we really can connect with great employees, really dedicated staff, work with elected officials and really make a difference in communities. I’ve just had a fantastic career and I just really love what I do. I’ve had the opportunity to have a little time, and I’m really ready to jump back in and really looking for a super community. And I’m looking at Plymouth, and I’m seeing that it really has a lot to offer. I think that my 35 years of experience in municipal government, I have a really deep and wide breadth of experience in solid waste, transportation and local government, and I bring all of that to this community, this complex community that’s got a lot of opportunities and a lot of challenges ahead. I really feel that I’m a really great match for this community and this opportunity. So, I’m just delighted to be here today to talk to you about the community and talk about my experience and how this might be a great fit.

PART 2 – 0:05:01

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. What is it about Plymouth that really grabs at you? I know that when the screening committee met with you, you had an opportunity to spend some time in town. Tell us about your experience and what you find most attractive about the community.

Jennifer Phillips:

We had the opportunity to be here for a couple of days. I’ve spent a bit of time in Massachusetts, not a lot. But we just really find the area really great. We really enjoyed the locals, we enjoyed the feel of Plymouth, we spent quite a bit of time, we had several meals, we walked around, we talked to folks, “How do you like Plymouth?” Had a chance to talk to actually an employee just sort of got her in the hallway, and had a chance to chat and see the town hall and just really enjoyed myself. Just nothing but really positive. People really enjoyed being there, the shopkeepers just really enjoyed the feel, and obviously, the privilege of being in Plymouth and what a special town it is to our nation. It just really had a great feel and my husband and I just really felt like this would be a place that we could call home.

When you’re a town manager, the two intertwine, and that’s why the pick of where you want to be and where you want to be a town manager is so important because your life intertwines with this work, and we could really see ourselves here. So, we just loved it. We had a great time, and we really think this is a great opportunity.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay, great. Well, let’s talk a little bit about your, we’ll get ready to sort of if you were appointed Town Manager of Plymouth, and you know this from your prior position City Manager in other communities, you would be the manager, the leader of the organization, a local government organization on a day-to-day basis, talk to us about what that style looks like and then I have some follow-up questions as to sort of drill down into some of those issues.

Jennifer Phillips:

Absolutely! So, really, I’m a very authentic leader. Again, I just love what I do, and I think people really see that. I care about the organization that I work in. I care about the community that I work for, and I come in with very specific values. I have leadership values, and they’re very true to who I am, and it makes working for me quite frankly pretty easy. So, those values are exceptional customer service. We want to deliver great service to our community. Teamwork, I expect my folks to work as a team together. Safety, I believe strongly that everyone in the organization has the right to feel safe in an organization both mentally and physically. Innovation, I really encourage innovation and by having innovation as a value, what I can do is it really sends the message out to the organization that I want you to take risks and I want you to be creative, and when things go wrong, I’m going to take responsibility. When things go right, you’re going to get all the credit.

And then the most important to me is ethics in the workplace. I expect people to be ethical, and that is just an unwavering value for me and I think really builds a solid organization. So, when you come in with those values, people know right away what your expectations are, and they really seem to gravitate to that, and it really starts to filter into the organization. People know what you expect of them and that you’re going to be there and have their back. So, you start talking about those things and just really getting into the organization and getting to know folks. I know that there’s anxiety whenever there’s a change at the Town Manager position and so really getting out, meeting with the department heads, starting to build those relationships, taking the time to do that and really getting into what’s happening in the organization. The first six months are probably the most fun, because you’re learning, and it’s really exciting and people love to share what they do, and there’s opportunities for me to do work-along. I don’t like to do ride-along. I like to do work-along, and so I’m actually doing the work with the employees that’s one of the really fun things I love to do. So, there’s opportunity to do things like that, and just really get to know what’s happening in the organization. I think quickly people realize how much I care, and how much I just really enjoy doing what I’m doing, and that really seems to start things off on a really good foot and provide that leadership that people are looking for.

Bernard Lynch:

Along those lines, in some experiences that you can relate would be helpful here, Plymouth is a town that in 2022 isn’t the same town it was 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and it’s not the same town it’s going to be 10 years from now. It’s going through changes. Arguably every community is, every organization is. Can you speak to your experiences in other positions in leading an organization through a period of change, through a transition?

0:10:14

Jennifer Phillips:

Absolutely! And I’ve been doing it for many years in many organizations, as you can see from my resume, I was a department head for an animal shelter. I did a tremendous amount of change management there. It was really necessary. It was a very dysfunctional department so we really cut my teeth on leadership and chair. And throughout my career, I’ve really led a lot of change. For the community, there is a lot of change happening and growth is one of the main changes. And I think really planning for growth. Growth is going to happen to our communities whether we wanted to or not, and really being able to plan for that growth and having those conversations with our communities is really the best way to manage for change. Understanding what’s happening, planning for it and not being reactive, and the same is within the organization. Change is going to happen and the better you’ve built those relationships and the better you understand. Especially the phases of change, you watch the employees. Some go through denial and get stuck in denial, some get stuck in the resistance phase, others move through them really quickly. But sort of recognizing where the organization is and really increasing that communication to make sure that folks are understanding what’s happening within the organization.

Change is really something that can really invigorate. When done right, can really invigorate an organization. I think it’s really healthy. Also, for the community we see the changes coming and the more we can plan for those changes and be organized and communicate with our community about those changes, the more effectively we can move through those changes.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. You mentioned the first six months, along those lines the first 90 days, 100 days, what would that look like particularly as the town as you start to look at it and start to consider ideas for restructuring, how would you go about analyzing the Plymouth structure?

Jennifer Phillips:

The best way really is just to get to know especially department heads first, work with the elected, with the selectmen. It’s really important. That relationship for me with those five of you is just really important, and so really starting to understand what your expectations are and what you’re looking forward to doing, doing some goal setting would be really important. I know you have some, really kind of narrowing those down and understanding what your priorities are, and just really working with the organization and starting to move that forward. So, I lost a little bit of my train of thought there. What was the–oh, reorganization. That comes in time. Things are functioning right now. I’d have to get a feel. It’s actually one of the things I really like to do is organizational change, organizational management, and I’m very good at it of sort of understanding how things flow well where we can have efficiencies, but I would need time to be able to do that. There’s no way for me to be able to speculate at this point, but I think there’s certainly opportunities.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. I’m going to jump ahead a little bit because you took us down a path there in terms of working with the board. What would a relationship with the board look like for you? How would you see yourself interacting with the board?

Jennifer Phillips:

Well, it’s the most important relationships that I have are with the five of you. My style is as long as that’s something you’re interested in doing is to meet with each of you on a weekly basis. It’s really important that we schedule once a week, we have a regular time where we can get together. Now, obviously, it would be virtually, but hopefully in time in person. Sometimes those meetings are five minutes because there isn’t much going on, and sometimes they’re the full hour, but it’s a much more casual environment, and we get to know each other, and we get to dialogue, and we get to talk, and just really be able to brainstorm, noodle some ideas. To me, that’s just really, really valuable time.

Some Board Members, I had one in Bothell who was only interested in meeting once a month. He’d been on the council for 6, 7 years and really felt that he was comfortable and that was fine and all the six others I met on a weekly basis. I just really value that time. So, that would be the first thing I’d really like to set up is what would you like to communicate, how often, and how would you like to do that and where and are you willing to do once a week with me and start building that relationship, and we can go through the agenda, we can talk about what’s happening in the community, we can do follow-up.

0:15:08

Jennifer Phillips:

It’s really, really important to me that I communicate equally with all five of you so that no one’s getting information easier or faster or some are getting it and some aren’t. Now, there might be questions and conversations that we have that I wouldn’t share with all five, but if I’m doing updates or there are things that are happening, I keep a list and then I go through that list with each of the five of you so that you’re all getting updated on the same things. And then if you have questions for me and follow-ups then I can do that and do the work that week and then follow up with you the next week. So, I just find those just to be really productive and really help us build our relationship and our communication. So, that would be really key. Really working through issues, we’re going to have conflicts. It’s a high stress job. There are a lot of pressures on all of us, but really being open and assuming that it’s really important to come from a place of good intentions. As long as we all understand that we’re all working for the community and we’re all coming from a place of good intentions, we can get through anything together. And that’s really important to me that we can work through those things and have that relationship.

Bernard Lynch:

You stated that you’ve been in local government for 30 or 35 years. You’re a seasoned municipal manager. In your opinion, what are the greatest threats to local government? One short term and one long term.

Jennifer Phillips:

Only one? That’s a great question but–all right.

Bernard Lynch:

If you have to give a couple on one of those, go ahead.

Jennifer Phillips:

I will. I can’t help myself. So, there’s a couple, I think. One is climate change, that is just having a massive impact on all of us. Financially, you watch the federal government, you watch the state, the financial implications of climate change are staggering and it just costs money to address some of these challenges that we’re having and do the right things environmentally. And so, I think climate change is a long-term threat that we all need to step up and start taking the necessary actions and planning for that. It’s years. We have years that we need to continue to work on that, and I’m just delighted to see that you have a sustainability position coming in. That’s just an outstanding position to have to work on some of those things. So, to me, that’s one of them. We’re in constant crisis of funding. We never have enough money and with inflation now coming, we’re just going to struggle. We’re going to continue to struggle financially. And then the state of our infrastructure. I mean, we just don’t have the money to maintain the amount of infrastructure that we have at the local government level. The roads are deteriorating, the infrastructures are deteriorating, the bridges are deteriorating and those are long-term challenges that we need to continue to work on.

From a short-term standpoint, I would say recovery from the pandemic, supporting our businesses, making sure that we can come out the other side of this. It sounds as if you’ve done a really good job financially, you have a very strong Finance Director, you’ve made some really good decisions, but we want to support our businesses, we want to support our community, bring tourism back to where you’d like to see it and really come out the other side of this pandemic, positive and really working our way through it.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. All right. Harry, do you want to jump in with your question at this point regarding the sustainability coordinator?

Harry Helm:

Well, sure. Obviously, you are aware that going to town meeting is a position of the climate sustainability coordinator that would report to the Town Manager. How would you work with that employee?

Jennifer Phillips:

It’s just super exciting, and I’m really hopeful that goes forward. I think it’s a great opportunity to bring somebody in with expertise that many of us don’t have and really be able to look at what we’re doing, look ahead. Again, it’s the short-term, long-term, what can we do on current projects? What can we do on future projects? What are some low-hanging fruit that we can do? What are some bigger projects? Where is the money available to support some of these projects? And really start to get out in front of this, and really put in some environmental initiatives and some sustainability initiatives that really can have an impact and make a difference and something that town can be really proud of. So, I’m super excited to have that position and be able to work higher and work with that individual and really see them have an impact organizationally and give the department support that they’re looking for, and also for the community to see the strides that the board is making towards sustainability.

0:20:20

Bernard Lynch:

You also talked about the financial, the impact of infrastructure and the impact of climate change on the finances. So, let’s talk about finances. Talk to us about your experience with financial management in particular give us an example that would illustrate to us your knowledge of municipal finance and your understanding of how to build a financially sustainable organization.

Jennifer Phillips:

Well, I’ve done it several times with the City of Santa Rosa. I assumed the Chief Financial Officer position when our Chief Financial Officer left. I did that for almost eight months, put the budget together and created a long-range financial forecast. Actually, created it myself to better deliver information to the Santa Rosa City Council, so they could understand the financial challenges that the city was facing. When I went to Saint Helena, Saint Helena was in very serious financial condition. And so, I used that same long-range financial forecast to really inform not only the council but the community on where we were financially which led us to have the opportunity to pass a sales tax increase to be able to better financially sustain the town. And then coming to Bothell, very unexpected. The council and the interim city manager had told me that the city was in very strong financial condition and in fact, they weren’t. And so, really having to get in there and understand the decisions that were made by the prior council and prior administration, why those decisions were made, and I mean, it was part of a major redevelopment plan and some of the strategies didn’t pan out as they had planned leaving us in a very precarious position, and working really hard to one, educate the council on where we were financially and some of the decisions that needed to be made. The importance of having free cash or general fund reserve and starting to build towards increasing that and making stronger and better financial decisions. We also went out and sent in a Bothell for two levies, one to raise and rebuild our fire stations and the other was for a public safety levy to increase the number of positions and enhance and maintain our safety services. So, I have a really strong finance background. It’s something I’m really proud of, and I think is really key to the success of an organization and for a leader to understand finances.

Years ago, I used to think that finance was the lifeblood of the organization. One of the things I’ve learned over the last 10 years is it’s both finance and IT. One is the veins and one is the arteries. If you don’t have one or the other functioning well, your organization is not going to be healthy, and we need both to function effectively for an organization to be healthy.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. When you prepare the budget, you and I have talked about this in the past, but I wanted to talk about it a little bit more. You have a GFOA (Government Finance Officers Association) budget, key to that is integrating strategic planning into the budget document, into the budget process. How do you go about doing that?

Jennifer Phillips:

Well, one of my favorite things to do is to have a goal-setting day. It’s the day that we just pull up our bootstraps and we get together for a whole day with the council, the department heads are there, and we really talk about who we are and what we’ve accomplished and what we want to accomplish moving forward, and that really sets the basis for developing the budget. From that, we establish or reestablish or reconfirm the goals that the council has or the select board, and then we identify strategic objectives that we’re going to be doing to move forward and start accomplishing those goals for the board. So, that really becomes the base of developing the budget. We also go out to the community. In many of the communities I’ve worked in, we go out and asked the community: what are the things that you’re looking for? And we make sure anytime you go out, and you ask the community, you have to close that communication gap. And so, in our presentations to the board or the council when we’re presenting our budget, we always make sure that we include that information. This is what we heard from the community and this is what we were or were not able to incorporate because it’s just as important to tell the community why you didn’t do something as much as why you are doing something. And so, we take all of that as part of our strategy and then build the budget around that and then are able to present that in a draft form to the budget.

0:25:09

Jennifer Phillips:

Normally, what I do is I do that over a multiple evening event where we do a workshop. In Bothell, we did it over three nights, four hours each night, and each department presents their budget, and we have a really robust discussion about why the budget is like that, what the increases are, what the decreases are and put decisions at the end, really critical policy decisions that I need from the council to be able to then finalize the budget so that I can bring it to them. So, it’s really based on these goals and strategic objectives, these communications that we have to develop the budget and continue to talk to the community and the council ultimately to deliver that city manager’s budget.

Bernard Lynch:

Again, going back to something you mentioned before about the infrastructure, the challenge of maintaining infrastructure. One could declare that to be a liability that’s out there that a community has to grapple with, and the other is OPEB, another huge liability that needs to be managed. What’s your strategy with dealing with infrastructure? What’s your strategy with dealing with OPEB liabilities? Absolutely doing that, again financial stability and sustainability isn’t possible.

Jennifer Phillips:

Absolutely. So, it’s really about communication and understanding. A lot of these things we hid for many years and I don’t think the community and many of the boards and councils really understood what was happening. So, really having that that open transparent authentic conversation about these are the realities of what we’re doing. It’s really interesting because in California, our pension obligation problems are with the actual pension not with the health care. Whereas in Massachusetts, it’s your healthcare that’s has your huge unfunded liability. And so, in California, it’s crippling that the pension obligation is crippling cities in California. Slowly we started to put together strategies on how we’re going to do that. Some cities made the decision to borrow debt to pay down their OPEB obligations, and then the stock market crashed and so not only did they have the debt, but they had increased payments because the obligation, the liability became even bigger. It was catastrophic.

We actually did that in Santa Rosa before I started and it’s just crippling. In Washington, they’ve actually managed their pension liabilities really well. We have a much lower pension system here, and no retiree health, and so we don’t have those issues here. And so, obviously, that’s going to be something that we need to continue to work on when I come to Massachusetts and Plymouth to identify strategies to be able to do that. But again, it’s really acknowledging that it’s there and identifying what strategies we can do. Obviously, working with the unions and working with the employees and working with the legislature to see what changes can be made. In California, we made huge legislative changes to reduce the pension benefits that will help over time not immediately, but it is helping over time.

With the infrastructure, again, it’s really understanding. It’s understanding the condition of your roads, talking about the condition pavement index and where you are and what you’re striving to be at. Are you at a 50? Which is your roads are close to failing. Are you at 70, which is a fairly good grade? Are you striving for 80? And really having those authentic conversations. And then looking at the cost, the total cost. Back when I was in Fullerton in the 90s, I brought together a citizens group and we were bleeding in our unfunded infrastructure liabilities. And we put together a whole strategy really about how do you stop the bleeding and then how do continue to put monies aside, and the council didn’t follow those strategies that was recommended by the community and the report and the conditions continue today. When I look at Fullerton 20 years later, their infrastructure is completely deteriorated because they didn’t make the investments. And so, again, as I go back to some of those long-term threats that we have at local government, dealing with these things are a huge issue. There is money coming from this big infrastructure bill from the federal government, but unfortunately, people don’t realize that that’s just not money that’s going to be cut, and we get to do projects. Federal money comes with huge reporting and obligations.

0:30:08

Jennifer Phillips:

And obviously, we’ll buy for that money, but it’s not free money and there’s a lot of work that has to go behind getting federal grant money, buts we’ll certainly look for those opportunities and continue to look for opportunities from the state and really looking at where your infrastructure is and if you can develop a strategy, and stay true to that strategy and continue to make progress, you are going to make some progress on it, but one being knowledgeable about it and making sure that the board understands and the community who are engaged understand is a big step in that direction.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Another that’s certainly tied in with finances is economic development. What do you see as the role of the Town Manager in promoting economic development? Can you give us some examples in your current or in your prior experiences too that would illustrate what that role is?

Jennifer Phillips:

You have an Economic Development Director, you’re engaged in economic development and tourism, so it’s really what does that director and that staff need from me. I really need to know from the board what are your goals, what do you want from economic development, what are you eager to see and then putting that strategy together based on the board’s vision of what you would like to see happen in the town and working with the staff and where am I best utilized. We had a pretty aggressive economic development program. We didn’t have anybody when I came to Bothell, and we have a life science, bioscience hub here in Bothell that is actually second to the one in Boston, and it’s fairly not well known and quite frankly the council really hadn’t connected with them at all. And it was one of the things the economic development manager really worked with me on. We established relationships with those businesses: Philips and Juno, Seattle Genetics and big businesses up there that really were key to part of our success as a community and establishing, and she would take me to those meetings, and we had some quarterly meetings with some of those general managers or CEOs or facility managers as they were trying to expand and really building those relationships. When it comes to economic development, your first priority really is supporting the businesses that you have. Just make sure that they’re sustainable, support them and then if they want to expand and there’s opportunities for them to expand, that’s really your base, and then you can move out and look at looking for new, attracting new businesses. But really wherever I can be, however I can help, and especially you know translating the board’s goals and visions into an economic development program, and really going out and figuring out what’s best for Plymouth.

Bernard Lynch:

Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

Yes. Jennifer, there’s two projects that you noted in your resume in Bothell. And I’m interested in the $5 million Main Street enhancement. What did you do? How did you do it? And who paid for it?

Jennifer Phillips:

So, right before I started–

Charlie Bletzer:

Because I’d be interested in figuring out, we get some grant money to help the downtown to spruce it up, to make it look a little nicer more inviting to our tourism. So, I’d love to hear how you did that.

Jennifer Phillips:

Well, probably it wasn’t the best strategy. You have to burn down an apartment complex that was under construction and that happened right before I started. And so, it was a very, very big fire that happened a few months before I started and that really brought the attention of the state to our downtown and our fire department and our mutual aid basically saved our entire. It’s a very small downtown, but it saved the downtown from burning down completely. From that, we were able to get attention from the governor to say, “Look at our downtown. I mean, this has been a catastrophic loss of a new apartment complex that was halfway under construction. What can you do for us?” And so, the governor was able to bring in $5 million dollars for us to do a major infrastructure improvement to our main street. And so, that was one section of Main Street, actually two blocks where we redid the entire sidewalk all the amenities, the street lighting. We made it much more pedestrian-friendly and really made it a place where we can have festivals and have really great events. So, that’s where the money came from, and then we were able to deliver a really great project.

Charlie Bletzer:

So, that’s obviously something we don’t want to do. The other one was you talked about the parking structures in the bus, how did you do that?

0:35:08

Charlie Bletzer:

And again, how did you fund that? Because we have a structure all built in there, not built it’s all designed that it’s going to be a $30-million project that we can’t afford to fund. So, I was wondering how you did it there.

Jennifer Phillips:

So, the region passed what we call ST3 (Sound Transit 3) so there was a Sound Transit 1, a Sound Transit 2 and then a Sound Transit 3. Sound Transit is a regional agency that delivers light rail and bus services. So, in Sound Transit 3, the city is along the corridor of the 522, which is it’s a highway, but it’s an arterial that go through several of the cities including Bothell band together to really push Sound Transit to include bus rapid transit for the east side, because the east side’s never going to see light rail that went to the west side Bellevue and where basically those that are more connected to downtown Seattle. And so, we fought to get that bus rapid transit. And so, as part of that, several parking structures were included to be able to make the bus rapid transit functional.

We also have a bus maintenance facility that got sited in Bothell, and part of that was to negotiate with Sound Transit. It’s very hard to cite a bus maintenance facility. Nobody wants it. And so, when I negotiated with Sound Transit, that was one of the ideas was, “Look, we’re not going to put up a lot of barriers for you to cite this in our city, but what we want in exchange is we want help in infrastructure improvements of the freeway where we have congestion. We want to cite a well-placed parking structure in our community.” And so, that was sort of that give and take of being a good partner with Sound Transit. So, the money for the parking structure and for the bus rapid transit system would come from this regional sales tax that was passed by the voters.

Charlie Bletzer:

Okay. Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

You’ve probably already hit upon this but you mentioned the tourism. Tourism is arguably the largest industry and it’s going to remain of significant importance. How would you go about diversifying the the local economy though to attract more commercial, light industrial and office commercial type of investments in the town?

Jennifer Phillips:

It’s a great question, and it’s what a lot of us are trying to figure out. I mean, when you look across America, there’s 15,000 towns and cities maybe not all of them are looking for economic development and businesses to come into their communities, but many are recognizing that you know business is really a key part of a community’s success, and we’re all striving to get those high paying, high earning and high spending jobs into our communities because they’re the most valuable ones that really can bring up a community economically. So, really, it’s about reputation and it’s about identifying industries that maybe haven’t looked at certain communities, maybe haven’t looked at Plymouth. You do have properties available, what do those properties look like and what are things we can do preemptively to be able to bring businesses in.

So, what we did in Bothell was we have that same business park I was talking about with the life sciences and biosciences, that’s actually a privately owned business center and within the covenants of that business center, the business owners had had decided that there would be no residential which really limited especially with this next generation who want to live and work very close to where they are, they want to live where they’re working. We started working with the business owners to talk about a new plan a sub-area plan we call it. And what we did is we spent several years designing a sub-area plan that would really enhance the ability of this business park to grow including adding residential, upping the height limits and most importantly is we did all the environmental for this sub-area plan. And so, any business that came in wouldn’t have to do an environmental review because we’d done it in advance. That’s a huge benefit to businesses. And so, really learning about what is a business looking for, there’s a desperate need for lab space. I know in our area lab space is very hard to find, it’s very hard to cite, it’s hard for cities to do the inspection, the building inspection and to do the permitting on that because it’s very specialized. And so, there are opportunities.

0:40:06

Jennifer Phillips:

And it’s really sort of laying the groundwork in working with your economic development director and working with the planning director to identify what are some industries that are starting to grow now. No one really knows what’s going to happen with office space. I’ve read multiple articles where businesses are starting to do more shared, and they are starting to reduce space. And then other articles say, “No, they want more space because they want to have more of an open feel like more of an auditorium style, so they want more space, so people can feel like they’re working at home rather than working in a cubicle.” And so, nobody really knows the next five to ten years what sort of that office space is the need for that is going to be. But really, it’s looking at what we have, looking at the assets that we have. We’re close to Boston, not everybody wants to be in a big city anymore, but the next generation really doesn’t want to be isolated in the suburbs. They want to go to restaurants, they want to have activities, they want to be close enough, they want to be healthy so they want to be able to hike and do things and go on bike routes. Plymouth offers a lot of that and that’s what businesses are looking for. I think that if we can really focus on those opportunities, do some preemptive planning and really show businesses that we mean business, and we can be a partner with them, I think there are some real opportunities ahead for Plymouth.

Bernard Lynch:

One of the great challenges with all economic development is balancing the growth that comes with that development, the residential and commercial development, with the environmental concerns. What’s been your strategy with regards to that?

Jennifer Phillips:

Again, it’s super exciting to move forward with a sustainability coordinator. Again, it’s showing the community and the business development community that Plymouth is serious about this, and really being able to balance those things, really setting forward some expectations. If there’s anything developers hate, it’s surprises. And so, the more upfront and again, the best way to plan for growth is planning. And so, if we can have those expectations out there and we can be known as a community that’s going to protect its environment, but we’re going to balance that with effective development, we’ve done some interesting things. We were able to sell a piece of property in the downtown that was very close to the river, but we were able to work around that and that apartment complex which actually is an affordable housing complex for very low-income seniors, it benefited from the setbacks for the critical habitat and really adds to the quality of that development. And so, there are really good balances there. And again, employers and their employees are looking for places to work where they can be proud to work and that they can have those opportunities to walk around. When we did the sub area plan for Canyon Park, there was a lot of critical area up there that that was protected and the way we designed that was really to be part of the business park and there were places for people to walk and be able to get out at lunch, and take a break and get some fresh air and enjoy that critical open space. So, there is balance there, but again, it’s eliminating the surprises and really making sure we’re working with anyone interested in developing that we’re upfront about who we are and that we’re committed to sustainability, we’re committed to the environment, and this is what we’re expecting from our developers.

Bernard Lynch:

Anything else on this that anyone wants to ask at this point? You can always come back. Let’s talk about another aspect of being a Town Manager. All the employees that work for the town, you’re responsible for managing all of those people albeit with the department heads. What’s your approach to motivating and evaluating employees, holding them accountable? And how do you prefer to interact with employees?

Jennifer Phillips:

As much as I can, it’s the best part of the job. Really, it goes back to those values. Delivering exceptional customer service, working together as a team, making sure that people feel safe in their work environment, being innovative. It’s that innovation. When employees know that they’re safe to take risks, and they’re safe to innovate, it’s amazing to watch them bloom and physically, their body language changes, and they really open up, and you can see the creativity and the inspiration. When employees are afraid to take risks, and they don’t feel like they have permission to be innovative, they physically pull in and there’s sort of this tightness in the community, in the organization. And then the ethics that I am open and honest with them and I expect the same and there will be accountability.

0:45:07

Jennifer Phillips:

I have no place in the organization for someone who is unethical. I can’t function in an organization where ethics is not a value and there isn’t a place for people who don’t believe in those values and treat people with fairness and accountability and respect and are honest and take responsibility for their mistakes. So, those things are really important to me. And when those values get out and people start to hear about them, it really eases the temperature in the organization because those are pretty easy things and people like it, and they like to know what’s expected of them.

Public service is an amazing place and the people who choose to be in public service really are good-hearted people. It’s just a privilege to be a part of this profession and to find organizations and be part of organizations where people care so deeply about their work. I really like the interactions. I always tell the story that I had the opportunity to have a refrigerator in my office. I chose not to do that and have my water and iced tea and things in the common area of the break room, and it was my way of being able to go downstairs and fill my water glass and be able to see people and say hello and chat for a minute and those things energize me. They fill my tank and I just love that.

When I was doing my 360 evaluation for my review, some of the feedback that came back was the employees hold Jennifer in high regard because she holds them in high regard. Some of them said which was super touching, “She sees me,” and I hadn’t really thought about it until I saw it in writing and I thought, ‘Yeah, because you’re important to me.’ I try to learn everyone’s name. I want to know everyone’s name. It’s just really important to me, and I and I think they know how much I care and how much I value them.

One of the really fun things I love to do is at some of the critical holidays, the Wednesday before Thanksgiving, the day before Christmas or Christmas Eve, we have pretty short staff. There’s a few tried and true folks, and they’re usually new people who are there, but town hall is pretty empty and what I love to do is go around and around one o’clock or two o’clock, I let everybody go home, but I don’t want to close the town hall because I think it’s important that we’re there to serve people, but I let everybody go including the departments heads. I make the department heads go, and I work the front desk and I answer the phones, I do all the customer service at the front desk and I leave the front doors open and I serve the community for those hours and I love to do that, and I think the employees know that I do that for them because I really value what they do, and I want them to get on the road. Traffic’s horrible on those days, I want them to be home with their families and those are the fun things that you get to do that I think really resonate within the organization, and they’re really fun for me to do. And I can tell you working in that front desk, you learn so much. It’s such a great opportunity to talk to some of the residents, and really know the work that your people are doing at the front desk.

Charlie Bletzer:

Also related to personnel management is the collective bargaining that has to go on. Both Washington and California, there are public sector unions, what’s your style? What’s been your experience in working with unions?

Jennifer Phillips:

I’ve been doing collective bargaining and labor negotiations for well over 20 years now. I started in Fullerton, have been on many bargaining teams and so been through some good negotiations where things have gone really well especially when money’s flowing and we’re not in financial crises. And I’ve been through others where it’s really tough. A lot of it goes back to that established relationship of the employees know how hard it is to make tough decisions. 70 or 80% of our budget is people. We’re a service business, that’s what we do. We deliver service through people. So, the easiest thing to do whenever there’s a financial problem is to just balance the budget on the backs of the employees. I really don’t like to do that. I really like to work with the board to understand other options, look at service changes and not just make that the first choice: cut salaries, don’t give raises, whatever it is.

0:50:02

Jennifer Phillips:

Sometimes that’s part of the formula, but I don’t like it to be just the first option to really look at, and I think the employees know that, and they know how hard I fight for them and really want to do right by them, and I think that’s important. When we came across COVID, Bothell is not a strong sales tax. We have sort of the standard. We don’t have a mall, we don’t really have any sort of major retail, and so we had no idea what COVID was going to do to our sales tax numbers. And so, we were already financially struggling. We’re not in a strong position yet, and so I made the decision that we needed to lay off employees. We laid off 14 people. We did furloughs and everybody came to the table, not police and fire because they can’t furlough, but we talked to both police and fire, looked at administrative positions, and we laid people off, and it was really, really hard, and we all hated it. The unions hated it, I hated it. It was terrible, but we understood what we needed to do, and we did it together, and I’m really proud of that.

Bernard Lynch:

Moving into another category and this ties to a priority of this board when they engaged with us to do this to help with this search. We reached out and said, okay. What are you looking for from a manager? One of the comments that runs through many of what we received was the board was looking for a town manager who works to improve communication with residents and improve services to residents and also running through all this is really be engaged with the community. You mentioned earlier particularly as related to the budget how you interact with the residents with regards to that. Talk to us about how you would enhance communication and transparency within the Town of Plymouth, and how you would become a member of the community?

Jennifer Phillips:

One of the reasons that I picked so carefully I need to feel that connection to be an effective town manager, and so I always have in every community that I’ve worked, I’ve really felt connected to that community because when I applied for the job and I looked at the job, I felt some sort of connection to it. It was a place I wanted to be. It was a community that I felt comfortable in, and I feel the same thing about Plymouth that it really has something that I want to be a part of. There’s a draw. There’s an attraction there. There’s energy there. And then it happened very naturally for me and I think it goes back to that authentication, the authentic feeling that I have because I want to be there. I spend a lot of time in the community, we eat in the community, I go running in the community, I go to community events not because I have to because I want to. My husband’s always there with me, and if we’re able to bring the dog, we bring the dog, and we’re there because we’re having a good time not because, “Oh, yeah. I’ve got this event and I got to be there. Let’s pop in, be seen and go.” It’s fun to see the community, and people know me. They know me on the street, they wave to me, they know that they can talk to me about their issues. They know oftentimes I’ll be proactive about the issues, and I’ll come out and talk to a business or I’ll see something that that doesn’t seem right to me when I’m out on one of my walks or runs, and I just engage in that community and really feel that I become part of that. I think that’s really important. Transparency for me and that’s really become a buzzword in our community, in our sort of world of government. We’re struggling at it and I think there’s still a distrust among communities that we’re still not being transparent enough and all we can do is just be very open and honest about the work that we’re doing, get the information out there, get it out there in a timely fashion, the quality of work that I’m seeing coming out of Plymouth is very impressive. I’ve watched the town meetings, I’ve watched the board meetings, the staff appears prepared, they’re answering good questions, the materials seem quality. There’s good work going on. And so, we want to continue to build on that and really build that trust with the community.

We haven’t cracked the communication not yet in local government. We’ve been working on it for years. There’s just people who don’t want to be engaged in what we’re doing and I respect that, but I think that we can continue to strive and one of the things I like the best is going to where people are. I think having everything at the Town Hall, and I think expecting people to come to us is an unrealistic expectation.

0:55:09

Jennifer Phillips:

I think it’s been interesting with COVID in these virtual meetings, I think more people are engaged now than they were before because they can just click in and feel like they’re part of the meeting rather than just sort of watching it on television, and not being able to ask a question. There’s some really good software out there, if that’s something we want to look at that can further engage communities as we hold board meetings and commission meetings and things like that. But there’s really no silver bullet on just fabulous community communication. I think it’s just continuing to look at each community and how people are engaging, where we’re connecting with them, what kind of information they’re looking for and just doing great work and keep building those relationships.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Go ahead, Charlie.

Charlie Bletzer:

On that community involvement, Jen, looking at your resume, I’m just looking at what I see and you have quite a few jobs, and you seemed to move around pretty good like three to five years. This last job, I noticed you retired, you took a by oath, so you didn’t finish the contract. You retired and what made you come out of retirement to come across country? It’s a long way to come across country and the last thing is what kind of commitment are you going to have with Plymouth? Is it just like a three-year deal and you’ll be going? Because I think there’s a lot of work to be done here, and I’m very concerned about finding the town manager that will hit the ground running and gets some of these projects. We’ve got a lot of things that we have to get accomplished. So, I’m looking for a commitment. I’ll be honest with you. Looking at your resume, it’s a great resume, but you don’t stay too long anywhere. That’s one of my concerns, so if you can explain that.

Jennifer Phillips:

Absolutely! And I appreciate you asking the question. Part of it is really looking for opportunities where I can make a difference. So, I was an assistant city manager in Santa Rosa and I felt that I was ready to be a city manager. My city manager wasn’t going to be retiring, and I was ready to take the next step and the opportunity in Saint Helena came up, which is just the valley over and didn’t require us to move and so that was a great opportunity for me to be a first-time city manager. It’s a very interesting community. It’s a very challenging community. At some point, you realize that you’re not able to move a community forward and the things that the council is looking for, the community is just not interested. And so, I did what I could for that community. I saved them from basically being insolvent, brought them additional revenue, we passed the sales tax measure, and really felt that from a quality of life standpoint, we wanted to do something different. My husband had retired and California’s a very expensive state, and so we really wanted to improve our quality of life and wanted to move to Washington.

My intention in Bothell was to stay to the end of my career, the shelf life of city managers is running two to three years in some states. I stayed for four. I had a fantastic team that I built. We did fantastic work. There was still a lot of work to do, but quite frankly, the council wasn’t really–I have a non-disparaging clause in my contract, one that I didn’t want to have because I was fine with them talking about anything, but it was very important to them that it’d be in there to protect them, so I can’t say too much, but there were some issues among themselves with the council and the ability to move an organization forward and to keep doing good things if you have a council that is struggling among themselves, there’s a point where you’re not valued, what you’re doing isn’t valued and when it becomes a huge part of your life like I do for my organizations, there’s a time to ask the question, and it was the right time to ask that question. For me, it was the right decision and I was sorry to go and I would really like to have stayed much longer, but it’s up to a council and I think it was the right decision at the time.

The year off has been outstanding, and I am ready, and I am committed, and I would like to stay for an extended period of time.

1:00:02

Jennifer Phillips:

It is one of the things that attracts me to Plymouth. I really don’t want to do a short gig. And as long as the board is happy, and I’m happy, and we’re working well together, I see a very long relationship in this opportunity, and it’s something that’s really important to me. This isn’t a short-term gig for me. Why Massachusetts? Why Plymouth? A lot of its quality of life. It’s exciting. I mean, you get to do something really neat. To be a town manager in Plymouth is a dream, and I just think it would be great.

Bernard Lynch:

When you say a long-term commitment, Jennifer, what are you looking at? Another individual that we spoke with tonight, our question was where do you see yourself in five years? Where do you see yourself in five years?

Jennifer Phillips:

The Plymouth Town Manager.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. All right. Okay. Would you plan to live within Plymouth or within a reasonable distance of Plymouth?

Jennifer Phillips:

We would love to live in Plymouth. You have a very short housing supply, and so a little flexibility might be necessary. Plymouth would obviously be our first choice, and we would do everything possible to be able to live in Plymouth, but to be really honest, after five years of living in an apartment after the fires in Santa Rosa, over three quarters of our stuff still in storage, we need to settle down and that would be part of the longevity too. We really want to buy a house. We want to settle down, and we want to make this our permanent home. So, absolutely Plymouth would be our first choice, but we need to find a house, and we need to settle in so there may be a bit of flexibility that might be needed to accomplish that.

Charlie Bletzer:

Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Great, thank you. I think that wraps up our questions or the questions that I have, but the board members may have others. Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Yes, Jen, thank you for coming in being part of our finalists here. I know you have a lot of energy and I can appreciate that. One of the comments that you had made earlier is that there would be time you’d have to wait a certain amount of time before you could see what changes would have to be made. So, I’m wondering, is it six months? Is it a year? What is your thought process on how long it would take you to evaluate this enormous government structure that we have? How long do you think that process would take?

Jennifer Phillips:

You know that’s a great question, and I don’t know. I’ve made some changes that were absolutely necessary within months of arriving at an organization, because something had to change. And again, when it goes to ethics and individuals who maybe don’t belong in the organization, a change might need to be made very early, and I’ve done that. It just really depends, and sometimes it can be a small incremental change that you build upon and others are more major reorganization. So, it’s really fluid, and that’s part of the fun part, but it’s also when we go back to change, you really don’t want to rock the organization too much and sort of keep doing reorgs and keep doing reorgs and keep doing reorgs. It really disrupts the work, and it makes the employees sort of unsettled. Wow, what’s coming next? And so, I don’t know. I tend to work with a sense of urgency. I’m not sort of one of those people that’s like, “Well, we’ll wait awhile and see how that goes.” I’m sort of like, “We got to get things done, and I know you have goals and I know we want to get things done and I you know let’s move. Sometimes I can recognize a roadblock fairly quickly and some changes can be done. Other times things are flowing for a while, so it’s a really great question, but it’s a super hard one to answer. I think most importantly is understanding that I want to get things done and that organizational change is one of the tools in which I get things done.

1:04:59

Betty Cavacco:

I appreciate your honesty and I just have one other question is that and this board can attest, we have a giant constituent services with all of us. I don’t think there is a selectman here or select board member here that can say that they’re not contacted every day by someone regarding something. So, how would you handle something like that? Because there are five of us, and I’m sure we all have our own little niches, and people contact us for the different little niches that we have. So, how do you see dealing with all that? Because there’s a lot of people here and they do this a lot.

Jennifer Phillips:

And it’s important because it’s their community, and I’ve worked in communities that are larger than Plymouth. I served communities of several million. Santa Rosa was 170 000, Fullerton was 130,000. So, I’ve worked in large communities. Bothell is 50,000 and that’s part of the job. One of my top priorities and what’s super important to me is that the five of you feel successful, that you feel like you’re being responsive to your constituents. And so, whether it’s within a few hours or whether it’s in 24 hours, trying to get you that information and trying to be able to respond to that constituent and getting you what you need is really one of my top priorities. And so, I spend a lot of time on that, and it’s important. I mean, that’s why we’re here. We’re here to serve our community. It’s not an annoying gnat in the corner. It’s really important. It’s just part of the job especially in the first you know 6 to 12 months, it’s a great way for me to learn because those questions are going to come in and I’m not going to have any answers at all for months. And so, I get to go to the department heads and departments and ask and learn and so it’s a super way for me to learn. In time, many of them I’ll be able to answer myself and others I’ll still need help from staff, but I’m very respectful of that and really want to be there for each of you to be able to get that information back out to your constituents so that they feel they’re being heard. That’s one of those transparency things. Well, I asked the question but I never heard, or I got this weird answer, or it took a month, or it took a week, that’s what people equate to transparency, and it’s important. It’s that exceptional customer service. We want to deliver and meet people’s expectations.

Betty Cavacco:

Thank you. And I appreciate you joining us tonight.

Jennifer Phillips:

It’s my pleasure.

Bernard Lynch:

Other questions? Harry?

Harry Helm:

Hi, Jennifer, I guess a simple yes/no question but I would have a follow-up question to it depending upon your answer. Have you had experience with the town meeting form of government where town meeting basically occurs in this instance twice a year, and it is the legislative branch?

Jennifer Phillips:

No, I have not.

Harry Helm:

Okay. What are your thoughts on town meeting?

Jennifer Phillips:

I think it’s very interesting. I think that there’s a real opportunity for a larger portion of the community to be engaged. I’ve seen so many times five or seven elected officials trying to make legislative decisions, and I remember having conversations especially with a couple of my council members, how do I know? How do I vote on this? How do I know what the community wants? I don’t know and this town meeting format allows a much larger group of individuals, and you have representative so you know the people who are going. It’s not the open town meeting, but it’s representative, so the staff gets to know the individuals who are elected to these positions and who are attending the town meeting, and it’s an opportunity for much broader group of people to have a voice in the process. I think it’s really interesting. Quite frankly, it’s one of the things that’s attractive to me is I love to grow and learn and do things differently. I think it’s really interesting and I’m excited to be a part of something like that. I know it’s a lot of work. I can imagine what the preparation must be like. A preparation just for a council meeting is already a lot of work to prepare this massive packet for the town for the annual meeting, must be just a huge lift, but I also see the benefits in it and the broader community and the broader transparency that we can have when legislative decisions are being made.

1:10:15

Harry Helm:

So, if that were to change, one of the possible transitions going on in Plymouth possibly is to a city form of government as defined in Massachusetts, which could be various things of which you would probably be more accustomed to the town meeting. How are you going to maintain a straight line of management while the possibility of the legislative nature of our government is changing?

Jennifer Phillips:

I’m not really worried about that. I mean, we have our track and this is what we’re doing right now. If ultimately, there’s the decision to change the form of government, I’m actually in a position because I’ve worked in different forms of government to be a really good conduit to be able to support the board and the community and the staff through a change into a different form of government. I mean, it’ll be another change. We talked about change management, but it’s nothing that I’m concerned about from a leadership standpoint.

Harry Helm:

Okay. Thank you.

Jennifer Phillips:

Welcome.

Bernard Lynch:

Other board members? All right. Jennifer, would you like to do your closing comments?

Jennifer Phillips:

I just want to thank you for the time. I wish I was there.  I wish I could meet all of you in person. I really enjoyed the time with the search committee, really enjoyed my time in Plymouth, and even it was virtual, I wish I was sitting in Plymouth and was with all of you. It’s such a beautiful community. I’ve enjoyed talking to the staff that I’ve had the opportunity to speak with and spending the time in your community. I’m extremely interested in this opportunity. I feel I bring a lot to the town manager position, and hope that you’ll consider me for this great opportunity. I look forward to your decision.

Bernard Lynch:

Very good. Thank you, Jennifer.

Charlie Bletzer:

Thank you, Jennifer.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you.

Bernard Lynch:

Okay. Next steps: boards do different things at this point in time. So, I’ll leave it up to you how you want to handle this. You can have a discussion tonight, you can have a discussion on another night, you can however you want to do this.

Dick Quintal:

Pleasure of the board.

Betty Cavacco:

I’d like to have this discussion tonight.

Charlie Bletzer:

Is everybody else comfortable?

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Helm? You’re muted, Harry.

Harry Helm:

Yeah. I think we’ve been presented with some excellent candidates. As such, I guess a discussion would be fine, but that leads to a vote, and I’m uncomfortable taking a vote. I would be more comfortable if I could take what I’ve learned tonight, have some time to think about it, think about Plymouth and where we’re going. I mean, this is going to be perhaps the most significant decision that this board makes. I personally would feel comfortable with a couple of days or whatever is required in order to get it posted properly, and then reconvene and have that discussion and that vote. That’s how I feel.

Dick Quintal:

Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

I get the names and the resumes. We’ve had it for about a week, and I’ve done my due diligence in that time. I’ve talked to several people about the different candidates. And after tonight, I think in my mind there’s a clear there were three good candidates. I thought two were very good, but there was one clearly, I’m ready to vote as our next Town Manager for Plymouth.

1:15:10

Charlie Bletzer:

If the board’s not all for it, I’ll leave it up to because I want to do this right. I agree with you, Harry, it’s a very important position, but I’m not going to change my opinion. I’ve looked at everything, I listened to the interviews, I’ve done my due diligence, and I’m very comfortable on whom I want to vote for. So, that’s how I feel. I don’t know how Patrick feels but–

Dick Quintal:

Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

Yeah, I think overall, I’d be more comfortable just taking a little bit of a pause to sort of digest some of that. Like Charlie and everyone else you’ve had the time to see the materials, the resumes and hit to Google, but there’s just something about three straight hours of hearing from people that it’s sort of a lot all at once and a lot of notes and things like that. But if the board was moving forward, I would take my vote tonight, but I think if there’s a preference, I would say to have a little bit of a pause right now. Again, not a long time just a little bit of time to sort of sit back on this and then make that decision.

Dick Quintal:

Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

How long will it take, Harry? How much time do you need? Because I don’t think it’s fair to the candidates to hold this out too long. I mean, we need to post it. So, we need at least 48 hours, but I think the sooner we can have a meeting and come up to a decision. How long do you need, Harry? What do you think?

Harry Helm:

I would just like to say that I think that Patrick brought up a good point. Aside from the resumes and the cover letters that we’ve seen and the research that we’ve all done, we just spent over four hours listening to three candidates and I just need some time to digest it. I don’t need a lot of time. I’m not talking about a week. I’m talking about the amount of time that it takes to properly post a meeting.

Charlie Bletzer:

Mr. Chairman, are we able to do it? Because I don’t want any controversies. I want this to be unanimous on what we’re doing, I really do. I’d like to see that, so.

Dick Quintal:

Yeah. I mean, I know who I’m voting for whether it’s tonight or tomorrow or the next day.

Charlie Bletzer:

So, I’ll make a motion.

Dick Quintal:

No, no, no, no. I’m just saying, the board can take all the time it might need but I can write it on a piece of paper and give it to somebody in this house. That’s who I’m voting for. I mean, I don’t need to look at anything else. I’ve done my homework, I’ve done my googling, I’ve asked my questions, I’ve listened to them. In two days, it’s not going to sound any different than it did tonight. But I mean–

Charlie Bletzer:

I don’t think it’s unreasonable if a couple of board members would feel more confident. How can we do that, Lee, two days?

Lee Hartman:

Friday morning, I think. 48 hours in advance. Yeah, Friday morning could work.

Charlie Bletzer:

Can we pick a time? It’s not going to take long, right?

Dick Quintal:

You never know, could come out and not have it. I’ve been here before. I’ve been the holdout guy a couple of times, at least once I can remember, and that means sitting there for half an hour without changing my vote. So, that could be any one of you, I’m not saying I’m going to do it. I’m just telling you what I’ve seen in the past. It’s up to the board. I mean, either way–

Charlie Bletzer:

I’ll make a motion right now to do it at 9 o’clock Friday morning, if everybody’s available.

Harry Helm:

I’ll second that.

Dick Quintal:

Discussion? All those in favor? Unanimous. Friday nine o’clock.

Charlie Bletzer:

All right. Thank you.

Harry Helm:

Thank you for your consideration, guys. Appreciate it.

Dick Quintal:

No problem.

Patrick Flaherty:

Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Thank you, Bernie.

Bernard Lynch:

Thank you. And we’ll see you on Friday morning.

Dick Quintal:

Okay, sir.

Bernard Lynch:

Great, thank you.

Dick Quintal:

All right. Christopher?

Chris Badot:

Yes, sir. I’ve got Sharl Heller coming in.

Dick Quintal:

I was going to ask. Yeah, let me know when she’s ready. Okay.

1:20:10

Betty Cavacco:

Mr. Chairman, I’m just going to go off camera. I’m here, but I just need to go off camera for a little bit.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. That’s fine. Good evening. Welcome. Ms. Heller, how are you?

Sharl Heller:

I’m very fine. Thank you for the opportunity to speak with you tonight. I know you’ve had a very, very long night, and we promise to be concise and brief. I would like to share my screen, please. Let me start this little program.

Again, thank you for the opportunity to share information with you tonight about the US Forest Services Forest Legacy Grant Program. Three of us will be presenting this evening: Mark Whittington, a lifelong Plymouth resident, an organizer of the Pine Hills Area Trail System, otherwise known as PHATS. Lindsay Nystrom, the Forest Legacy Program Coordinator for the Department of Conservation and Recreation – Bureau of Forest Fire Control and Forestry, and me, Sharl Heller, Coordinator of the Massachusetts Coastal Pine Barrens Partnership and a Plymouth resident since 2005. The Massachusetts Coastal Pine Barrens Partnership formed in 2015, and is one of 42 regional conservation partnerships from New England. Our partnership focuses on the Coastal Pine Barrens of Southeastern Massachusetts, an ecoregion formed by retreating glaciers 18,000 years ago, whose boundaries are shown on this map.

The Pine Barrens Partnership Steering Committee consists of these organizations: Cape Cod Commission, Mass Audubon, Massachusetts Department of Conservation and Recreation, Manomet Inc., Wareham Land Trust, Simmons Stewardship and Conservation Ecology and the Pine Barrens Alliance. It is the partnership’s mission to bring about broad recognition of the unique qualities and intrinsic value of the Massachusetts Coastal Pine Barrens Eco region, building partnerships to:

• Protect, restore, manage and connect landscape to support the diversity of plants and animals,
• Provide a forum for landscape resiliency planning;
• Prepare for the effects of climate change
• Maintain the Pine Barrens’ enduring appeal to residents and visitors alike.

The partnership recently completed a US Forest Service Landscape Scale Restoration grant that included a project within the Plymouth town forest. The partnership has been encouraged by people in the US Forest Service, the Massachusetts executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs, and the DCR Department of Forestry to apply for a forest legacy grant, and have offered their assistance in applying for this grant.

Ms. Nystrom will be speaking about the grant in detail. I would like to share why the Partnership Steering Committee is focusing on the Holtec property as the core of a potential forest legacy grant application. Holtec Decommissioning International owns the largest remaining track of undeveloped globally rare Coastal Pine Barrens Forest. Critical habitat for 43 state listed species. This forest has had a management plan in place since 1977, and has been managed constantly for fire reduction and forest health making it an extremely high value and healthy forest. This property also, excuse me, is notable as the highest coastal elevation from Acadia in Maine to North Carolina providing 360-degree views from Cape Cod Bay to Buzzards Bay.

1:25:08

Sharl Heller:

Conservation of these parcels will also provide enhanced recreation recreational opportunities as required by the grant, which Mr. Whittington will elaborate upon later in this presentation. An equally important conservation of this land fits in with the select board’s recent climate emergency declaration “to support climate mobilization strategies including prioritizing forests and other open spaces because of their ability to draw carbon out of the atmosphere and store it.”

This map includes all of the Holtec property with the unlicensed parcels outlined in blue. These parcels are available for purchase if the Select Board designates conservation as your top priority for this land. The yellow outline parcels will become available for acquisition but only after the decommission process is complete probably in 2027 or 2028. Holtec has let us know that they would be a willing seller of the unlicensed parcels for the purposes of a grant application provided the town is in consensus. Supporting the Forest Legacy Grant are these groups:

• Plymouth Conservation Commission
• Plymouth Planning Board
• Community Preservation Committee
• The Open Space Committee
• The Plymouth Area League of Women Voters
• Sustainable Plymouth
• WildlandsTrust
• Herring Pond Wampanoag Tribe

But we need the Select Board’s support to move forward with the Forest Legacy Grant Application, and that is why we’re here tonight. I’d like to hand over the screen now to Lindsay Nystrom who can give you the specifics of the Forest Legacy Program. So, I will stop sharing my screen and say hello to Lindsay.

Lindsay Nystrom:

Hi, everyone. Let me get my slides up. So, as Sharl said, I’m going to give you an overview of Forest Legacy Program, and how it works. It’s a national conservation grant program that’s managed in partnership with the US Forest Service and the Massachusetts DCR, who I work for Department of Conservation and Recreation. The mission of the Forest Legacy Program is to protect environmentally important forest land that is threatened by conversion to non-forest uses like housing, agriculture or solar fields. I apologize for my cats in the background making noise. Through the program, we can preserve land either by purchasing it in full fee or using a conservation restriction. Protected lands can remain working forests. It’s an entirely voluntary program and acquisition is only made if there’s an amicable agreement between the landowner and the purchaser based on an appraisal. So, we submit project applications to the Forest Service annually in the fall. It’s a competitive grant process. We can ask for up to $20 million for a single project, and the projects are then ranked and scored nationally, and program funding levels are ultimately decided by the Congress’s Appropriations process. So, our funding level can vary. We recently have been given an increase in funding after the passage of the Great American outdoors act. So, in Federal Fiscal year 2021, the program was funded at $94 million and that funded 28 projects across the country.

So, Massachusetts has been involved in Forest Legacy for almost 30 years, right at the beginning of the program. We joined in 1993 with the approval of our assessment of need. I mean, in that time, we’ve had 31 projects funded in total for a total of $37 million in federal Forest Legacy funds.

1:30:02

Lindsay Nystrom:

The Forest Legacy program requires that 25% of the project’s total cost must be non-federal cost share and with our 31 projects, we’ve leveraged federal funds to contribute an additional $18.7 million in cost share. And that that match can come from a variety of different sources. It could be landowner donations; it could be another state grant program such as the Landscape Partnership Grant or the Land Grant that are done through the Executive Office of Energy and Environmental Affairs. We could also use Community Preservation Act funding for cost share, or it can be a combination of funding from multiple sources.

So, in total, we’ve protected 122 individual pieces of land totaling 19,767 acres across the State of Massachusetts. So, to participate in the program, each state develops an assessment of need which identifies and delineates important forest areas and designates them as Forest Legacy areas. So, we can only apply for Forest Legacy funding if the project is fully within one of those designated Forest Legacy areas. So, this is what our legacy area looks like right now. We’ve amended it multiple times, but this was most recent. Our most recent expansion was approved in the summer of 2020. So, at that time, we added Plymouth and those other towns you’ve seen in Southeastern Massachusetts. So, this funding is really brand new for Plymouth. This is the first time it’s been available for use in your area.

When we are proposing projects and funding decisions are being made, there are three core criteria that are being looked at. They’re known as importance, threatened, and strategic. So, just to run through what each of those are, importance focuses on environmental and economic project attributes such as threatened and endangered species habitat, watershed protection, unique forest habitat, economic benefits, public recreation and scenic resources. Threatened estimates the likelihood of forest conversion. So, things they’re looking at there are the rate of development and population growth in the surrounding area, physical attributes of the project area that make it suitable for building as well as landowner circumstances. And then the final criteria: strategic, reflects the project’s relevance or relationship to conservation efforts on a broader scale. For example, does a project fit or does it provide a link to other protected lands? Does it fit within a larger conservation plan or initiative?

So, here I just want to highlight a few things about the program, a few of the important program requirements. All Forest Legacy acquisitions must be held by a government entity either a state agency or a town municipality unless if the landowner is fully donating the property. Otherwise, it has to be held by a government agency. Our CRs are held in perpetuity both in the CR and if it were a fee acquisition, there’s language put into the CR or the deed, saying that management of the property must be in accordance with a management plan and consistent with the goals of the Forest Legacy Program. All of our properties must remain at least 75% forested. So, if a landowner had an agricultural field on their property that they wanted to maintain for agriculture, it would have to be at least 25% and it would be mapped out in CR and have to stay in that same area.

The program also maintains a role in ensuring good stewardship of the land. All of our CRs are monitored every year, and we visit our fee properties once every five years and all properties are required to have an approved for stewardship plan on file with DRC before the acquisition and they must maintain that and renew it every 10 years or the property must be under the guidance of a town or state management plan. We do that to ensure that the property will be managed sustainably and within any state BMPs or regulations if harvesting is done.

1:35:13

Lindsay Nystrom:

Here, I just wanted to show you the map of all the properties we’ve protected throughout the state. All 122 are shown there and a lot of our individual properties are combined together into larger projects, so you see all those listed down in the legend. Our smallest is a seven-acre donation in Princeton and our largest acquisition was a 3500-acre CR, that’s in the Towns of Leverett and Shutesbury. So, we have a range there but for the most part, they’re about 200 acres or less. Right now, I’m working on another acquisition in Shutesbury, a nine tracked project in and around Sturbridge. So, we’re moving into a new area there. As you can see, these projects are all clustered in certain areas. So, I’m excited to be here tonight and talking to you about expanding Forest Legacy into Plymouth. And with that, I’m going to turn it over to Mark.

Dick Quintal:

If I may. This is like the second presentation that we’ve seen tonight that we do not have in our packets. I’m being told because I punched into the Assistant Town Manager or the acting Town Manager, excuse me, and asked him why it’s not in our packet. And it said that Mr. Badot requested it. So, we just came off a meeting where we had the interviews before we had pretty much the information, but it was a lot to fathom. We got that I think back in September, and I’ve gone through all of that presentation and I wanted to educate myself because I’m going to be quite honest, I really don’t know a lot about it, and we’re trying to negotiate with Holtec and I just was always afraid of dropping my right foot for this and then messing up something with Holtec later on. But that being said, I would like to have all these screens that you folks been presenting and sent to Chris Badot so that I can go through these. I mean, I even went as far as on the last holiday spending the whole day watching videos, going on these websites to educate myself. I mean, I don’t want to look at it as a waste of time. I mean, I want to learn about this. I know what I’ve learned already from climate change, but I want you to proceed, but I can’t speak for the others, but I definitely would like the information. I mean, that’s only fair to give it a good thought. So, if we could get it in after the presentation that would be helpful.

Lindsay Nystrom:

Sure. I can send it to Chris.

Dick Quintal:

I want to support it but I want to see what I’m supporting. I mean, I have done due diligence. I’ve watched the tapes, I’ve watched different presentations on different people in different areas they have done. I really put it all into it so I could understand it because it’s new for me. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing, but these are all moving parts. We’re going to actually be negotiating. I believe, it’s next week within Holtec. This is my biggest fear with this right, and it has been from day one is to worry about committing to something and then having it not be what the town is in its best interest. That’s all. I just got to clear that up. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing. I don’t know how much. The one thing I learned tonight that that has to go through the selectmen’s office or the town we’ll say so that they always know what’s going on most of the time with the left hand, but there’s just a lot of moving parts but I want to learn this and I’m sorry to interrupt you but if we have all the information, if I had it all and I’m sure some other members want, that’s all. But I’m going to let you guys continue but please anybody that’s going to do a presentation and put some numbers out there and graphs, please send it to Chris Badot so we can actually look at it and make the right decision for the community. That’s all.

Mark Whittington:

It’s perfectly a very reasonable request. We were under the impression that it was. So, thank you. We will get it out too. I’m going to share my screen. I know you all have been working a long time tonight. So, I’ll try to keep this moving fairly quickly.

1:40:05

Mark Whittington:

I hope you can see screen. It should be saying what if in the top left corner. So, what I’d like to do is expand upon a couple of the core criteria that Lindsay mentioned and specifically the environmental recreational and economic public benefits. So, Sharl and Lindsay have done a wonderful job speaking about protecting and conserving the open space. I wanted to paint a picture and expand upon the concept of using this property to promote non-motorized year-round outdoor recreational activity for the residents, and also to provide the economic growth and tax relief through increased tourism visits and extended stays.

We wanted to do this in the context of the existing answer study that was conducted. I believe it was back in 1999 where describing the Open Space Corridor or the Wishbone where this property it would be a critical element in this gateway to ecotourism, zero-carbon 2050 goal for the state and a number of other items. So, what I’d like to do is to paint a picture and one of the great advantages that we have is we have a role model or another area that has done this already in Northern Vermont in the Town of East Burke is the Kingdom Trails Association that has been around for 20, 30 years, I believe. They’ve been able to knit together from a hundred private landowners and create a hundred plus miles of non-motorized general multi-use trails. So, hiking, biking, running, horseback riding, etc. This has all been done up in Kingdom Trails. They have successfully done this to the tune of attracting over 150,000 visitors every year and creating a direct economic spend of about $10 million into this community with about 500, 600 volunteers maintaining the tracks. And so, when I was up at Kingdom Trails, I thought to myself, ‘Why couldn’t Plymouth do this too?’ I can’t even say I’m a big advocate of procrastination and plagiarism, why couldn’t we take their mission? Provide recreation educational opportunities by managing, maintaining and building trails to foster the health of our community surrounding our environment and regional economy. So, what I’d like to talk about is this idea of using this property as a tourist attraction and try to make some guesses of what we could do in that area.

So, I’m going to recite some figures and I will send all of this information right after this meeting so that you can look at this. I’m going to recite some figures that came out of an Outdoor Foundation study fairly recently, and it probably doesn’t surprise anybody that due to COVID last year we had one of the largest jumps on record of people getting outside and enjoying the wilderness. In the lower right corner of this, you can see the top four activities that people were doing: running, hiking, fishing and biking. The bar chart at the top of the study was even segmented this market down into further. So, mountain biking, hiking and trail running. It didn’t have horseback riding so I can’t include that but I’m going to be relying on this study. This bar chart is simply looking at the growth from 2007 to 2020. So, I said if I could take those numbers, draw a 45-mile radius around the center of Plymouth, we get about five million people living in that radius. The study further segmented the activity levels of people into casual, moderate and core. Casual being 1 to 11 times a year they would get outside, moderate is basically once a month to once a week, and core is once a week or more.

1:45:07

Mark Whittington:

If I were to take this number and this number and multiply it by that number, we would get what marketers would call “the total available market”. So, you can see, I decided to just look at the moderate and core people within the 45-million radius. We have about 100,000 mountain bikers, 637 hikers and about 130 trail runners for a total available market of I’m calling day users of about 868,000. If I were to look at out-of-town users and Lee Felson was very nice from C-Plymouth to provide us some numbers. In the upper right corner in gray, our visitation we get about 700,000 people coming to Plymouth, 71% or 493,000 travel more than 100 miles, and they stay about 2.8 night. So, if I applied this same calculation as I did on the prior slide, I’d say without expanding the number of people coming to Plymouth just saying the people that are coming today, if we were to look at them, 86,000 of those would fall as mountain bikers, hikers and trail runners. If I were to add those two up, I’d get a total available market of hikers, runners etc. of almost a million people.

So, then what I did is I simply applied some assumptions. I said if we could get 5$ of this total available market and if the day users visited twice, they came once and said, “Wow, this is really great. I’m going to come back another time,” and the out-of-town visitors decided rather than staying 2.8 days, they would stay an additional one day and I said day users spend anywhere from $60 to $120 on fuel, food, snacks drinks, etc., and out of town, if you add in the hotel then you probably need to rent a bike the range would be here. By my calculations and I would encourage the town to maybe hire or ask somebody who does this more frequently than I do, but I’d say there were about a possibility of 91,000 annual visitors that would be using this property for non-motorized recreational activities and that would bring direct revenue into this town between $6 million and $12 million annually.

Now, granted the assumptions there are some people who would say my assumptions were way too low. There may be some people that would say my assumptions are way too high. One thing that I can say confidently is these numbers are directionally correct. We’re talking about tens of thousands of visitors, and we’re talking in the millions of annual tourism. This is as far as I went with the economic impacts study. True studies would bring in direct effects, indirect effects. The induced effects in other words of this $6 million to $12 million dollars that comes into the economy that gets spent over and over again as the waiters and waitresses that receive some of this money re-spend it, etc. etc.

There’s also a really important aspect that goes into most of these economic studies and that’s quality of life. We all value having facilities like what I’m talking about in our backyard. There are ways that economist and marketeers can quantify that number. Rather than doing that, what I did is to create an online petition and I put this presentation together a couple of days ago. There were 1700 people that had signed this petition tonight. I think they were in excess of 1800 people who have signed this petition outlining the concepts that I’ve just described here. And so, I thought it would be interesting. I just took a handful. I’d be happy to give you all the comments and all the people and the demographics of who’ve signed this, but Cole said, “Pine Hills is truly a special place because of the fantastic trails and community it encompasses. I’ve made many friends here and end up spending quite a bit of time in Plymouth because of their trail network.”

1:50:14

Mark Whittington:

Dennis: Outdoor recreation space is fast becoming one of our most valuable resources. And I thought Michael was spot on, “Preserving natural open space is more important ever to mitigate climate change and provide healthy passive recreation to people, and it brings money to the community. Everybody wins.” So, I’m hopeful and I’m encouraging you all to seriously consider the tremendous opportunity that we have here to follow an existing success story up in Burke, Vermont. I’m happy to send you the websites and there’s actually a great article in Yankee Magazine that talked about it. But I think we could do the same type of activity down here. It was interesting in your discussions with the Town Manager earlier the discussion came up of trying to attract businesses to Plymouth, and these are the types of quality-of-life issues that attract businesses because it attracts the kinds of people that are looking to work in those businesses. They’re high-paying businesses and I think this would be a great add to the town. I’m going to stop here. Again, I know you’ve had a long night. I would think we’d all be more than happy to answer any questions. Thank you and sorry Mr. Quintal, we will get all of this information to you as soon as we’re done.

Dick Quintal:

Any questions at this time for the board members?

Betty Cavacco:

Not necessarily a question, Mr. Chairman but a comment. I think I know that you and I have discussed this area and like you said earlier, we are in active negotiations with Holtec. I know Sharl and I have talked about this property in the past. I mean, I’m all for it, but in the meantime, one of the goals that I think we had at some point was finding an area that folks can legally use dirt bikes and ATVs. I don’t have a problem with this area as non-motorized, but we can’t take something away from one and not give them the ability to do that somewhere else because right now, it is all those. It’s motorized, it’s mountain biking, its hiking it’s all of that. So, I understand some of the environmental concerns that people have with motorized riding, but I think it’s really important that we have issues with people dirt biking and ATVs and they’re not supposed to be, and we need to find a place that they can legally do these things. I think this area, I have family members, they’re heavy into mountain biking and I mean this is a beautiful piece of property to do that. I never want to see it developed myself, but that’s just my opinion. But I think with this, I think I would like to see if there’s any suggestion from this committee that’s here for something for our dirt bikers and motorized equipment, because it’s a problem. Like I said, I don’t feel comfortable taking away something from people that already do, although nobody should be doing anything right now and taking that away and not having something else available for them. So, I mean, really, it’s like help us find a place for them.

Dick Quintal:

Anyone else wishing the question on the board? I can’t see you all so just speak up.

Harry Helm:

Charlie–or I mean, Dick?

Dick Quintal:

Go ahead. Yes, go ahead, Charlie.

Harry Helm:

First, can I ask Mr. Whittington to please unshare his screen. So, that we can see each other.

Mark Whittington:

Yeah, absolutely.

Harry Helm:

That’s why Dick can’t see anybody.

Mark Whittington:

Okay. My apologies. Thank you.

1:55:00

Harry Helm:

Don’t worry, not a problem. Okay. For possibly Lindsay, Mark, Sharl kind of getting my head around this since this is the first time I saw it and I do look forward to seeing the full presentation materials, so thank you very much in advance. Okay. For the purposes of the grant opportunity at hand which we have to apply for, it is not the full extent of the Holtec land at this point, correct? Lindsay? Or Sharl?

Sharl Heller:

Yes. I’ll take this one. That’s correct. What we’re looking at is about 1100 acres divided into about 12 parcels that is available now. There is another 600 acres that will become available in they think around 2027 or 2028, that will then you will have to decide on how to use that property.

Harry Helm:

So, it would be then applying for an additional grant? Or in other words, we can’t just apply for the whole thing and have it come to us in parts.

Sharl Heller:

All we can think about now is a grant for those unlicensed parcels.

Harry Helm:

Okay, cool.

Sharl Heller:

And I don’t want you to think this is the end of the discussion. A grant application, I’m sure Lindsay will tell you, it’s just the beginning of a very long process. Holtec has to weigh in, maybe we don’t include all of those parcels, maybe we include a portion of them, maybe we take a portion of the Holtec, and then look for opportunities by other private landowners to build this forest legacy application. So, I think you may be overthinking it. Lindsay will tell you there’s no obligation even to the last minute. So, Lindsay, maybe you want to assure them.

Harry Helm:

And the reason that I asked this question is not about overthinking it, Sharl. It is about the fact that we are about to enter into negotiations with Holtec, and I can tell you right now our priority as a board in the negotiations is this property. So, we need as much information as we can possibly get because we’re going to be entering into negotiation. Hence, my questions. So, please don’t take offense by them. I actually support this, but I also understand we’re about to go into negotiations with a major corporation. I worked for a major corporation at a high level and I know they don’t mess around. We have to have our act together. We have to know what we’re talking about at the beginning of negotiations. So, I was just trying to get my head around exactly what we would be negotiating in the short term and possibly negotiating in the long term. So, okay, cool, no problem. It’s my understanding that for the parcel at hand, the maximum grant would be $20 million.

Lindsay Nystrom:

That’s correct.

Harry Helm:

Okay, cool. And the remainder of the money, what are we thinking? Where are we going to have to go for it? Because if I did my math right, I didn’t quite calculate it, you’re talking about–I mean, I don’t know 1100, I can’t remember what I used. You’re talking around about $15,000 an acre. The value of land in Plymouth for residential uses is higher than $15,000. And the reason I asked this is that I also know that Holtec is a major corporation, and they have a profit motive. One of the things that they have not granted us is the right of first refusal. In other words, the ability to match the highest offer. So, I just kind of wanted to get an idea of where with negotiations, if it’s more than 20 million dollars, where are we going? So, any thoughts that your group has had on that? Down the road, please feel free to weigh in. Once again, I want you to know, I’m in favor of this.

2:00:13

Betty Cavacco:

Mr. Chairman?

Dick Quintal:

Yeah, Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

I’m sorry, I don’t mean to interrupt you, Harry. We are actually in active negotiations with them. And there are a couple of things that we really shouldn’t be discussing in this forum. We don’t want to get ourselves into any trouble. But I am like you, Harry I support this, but I think that I would love to see some type of partnership with the town and this group for that property, but I don’t think it’s going to benefit anyone if we have the Town of Plymouth fighting for the land and this group fighting for the land, and we aren’t together. It’s going to be like who’s going to get the land first? Me, personally, and they know this, I think they should gift that land to us. But like I said–

Mark Whittington:

Yeah. I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to interrupt.

Betty Cavacco:

But I think where we’re in active negotiations, we kind of shouldn’t be talking monies, or any of that kind of stuff because we don’t want to get into a situation where someone’s sending saying, “Oh, they’re doing this, and they’re doing that,” and we don’t want to ruin anything. That’s just my opinion.

Dick Quintal:

Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

Thank you for the presentation, and just really quick questions that I know, and I appreciate the board wanting to get the materials to review further but the actual ask of the board, I think it’s important that before we part from this meeting understand really clearly what that ask is, and what it means for the town and then what decisions the town has whether to go forward or not or stop or change. If that vote were to happen, what that means. Just so that we’re all really clear while we have especially Lindsay here from DCR and everyone just to explain that. I think it’d be really beneficial, and I appreciate, respecting the hour, the cliff notes version if you can.

Dick Quintal:

I appreciate it too, but I wouldn’t vote on this myself until after the next week.

Patrick Flaherty:

No, I’m not asking.

Dick Quintal:

That’s why I’m asking the information, Patrick.

Patrick Flaherty:

I understand. So, I’m just asking my question just like everyone else did, who I didn’t get interrupted.

Dick Quintal:

I’m sorry, you got some more?

Patrick Flaherty:

I want an answer, that’s what I want.

Dick Quintal:

Okay.

Mark Whittington:

Sharl, do you want to answer that one? Sharl, still with us?

Sharl Heller:

Patrick, you’re asking–I kind of got lost in the question. You were–

Patrick Flaherty:

So, in your letter, it says you’re asking to take a non-binding vote that it’s a priority to conserve all or some of these parcels.

Sharl Heller:

Exactly. That’s right.

Patrick Flaherty:

And I heard earlier that and I don’t want to be the one to be putting words in mouth but just to kind of make it go along. Earlier that up until the very last minute of this actually being executed, the town has the ultimate decision what to do about it. And so, I was asking just with the experts here just to quickly go through what is the request of the Select Board whenever that moves forward, not tonight, but what is the request and what does that mean? Does it hold the town to do anything or not at that point? And then, of course, we’ll have to take it back and discuss it and review. But while we’re all here, that’s what I want to make sure. Was it very clear to this board?

Sharl Heller:

Thank you for letting me clarify. What we’re asking the Select Board for is what we asked all the other groups that we mentioned for a letter saying that conserving the Holtec property is a high priority for the Select Board. That’s all we need to start the grant application, because once we have the letters and of course, we couldn’t do this without the Select Board there is no us and you. We have to be together on this. Once we have that letter then we can go to Holtec and ask them for a statement saying that, “Yes, they are a willing seller,” and then we can start the grant application. I think I have that correct, Lindsay, don’t I?

2:05:11

Lindsay Nystrom:

Yes, and I just wanted to add that it was mentioned before that we might be working separately from the town and that’s really not the case. This is a way for the town to have access to a pretty significant amount of funding that if this purchase is a priority for the town, this is a really important and great grant program where you can have access to the funding to help make that possible. So, it’s really us working with you and trying to help you make this happen.

Patrick Flaherty:

Thank you.

Mark Whittington:

Sorry, I’ll just quickly echo that. My intention here is that this is the town would be pursuing this. This is in the best interest of the town. It’s not two different groups. One in the same.

Dick Quintal:

Betty?

Betty Cavacco:

Well, like I said, I don’t want us to look separate. I think, Mark where you just said that you’re here for the funding. I mean, we’ll take $20 million all day long. I would like you guys to kind of put your heads together with what I had asked for motorized vehicles because I’ve been working on it since I get into office in 2017. I think it’s really important. If you ask people, some people don’t like them, some people don’t want them, but it’s a sport and there are other communities that have access to that, and they do very well. I mean, I love the fact that that property up there is a beautiful piece of property and it belongs. We should have it.

Mark Whittington:

I can just say from my perspective, I’d like to see the town proactively address these types of things and would love to get into those deeper discussions. Not tonight, I know how exhausted you folks all are, but I think that this really is a tremendous opportunity for us and us is collective Plymouth.

Betty Cavacco:

Well, Mark, honestly, I actually had talked to Lee Hartman about this whole situation. I think he was inviting me to for a next meeting that you guys were having with him. So, I’d like to get more information on that.

Mark Whittington:

Great.

Dick Quintal:

Sharl?

Sharl Heller:

Just to answer some of Betty’s questions. I’ve been a member of the Massachusetts off-highway vehicle advisory committee for many years. In fact, I was one of the ones that started that group by working with the executive office of Energy and Environmental Affairs. There is money available for towns to plan off-highway vehicle trail systems. We can access that money and David Gould has attended some meetings in the past and knows about the program. It’s just the time and the energy and the funds all need to come together for that, Betty, and we can.

Betty Cavacco:

Well, we have a grant writer now which is great. And I understand like the time and the energy and everything but like I said, it doesn’t look good for us as representatives of the community to go down this road by taking something away from someone that has access to it now. That’s all I’m saying. And like I said, we want to do something like this, so maybe we have a grant writer now, Tiffany Park. She sure she’ll do very well with it, and maybe it’s something that we could meet with her and discuss it.

Charlie Bletzer:

Mr. Chairman?

Dick Quintal:

Yes, Charlie?

Charlie Bletzer:

We got Steven Hall. Looks like he’s got his hand up over there.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you, Charlie. I didn’t open up to the public yet, but I will now. Mr. Hall, did you want to say something?

2:10:02

Steven Hall:

Yeah, good evening, everybody. Yeah, I just wanted to just make a statement to sort of just show my support for this. And it seems like the majority of you at least initially verbally seemed like you might be for it and I hope that you all review the material when Mark gets it over to you because I feel really strongly as a resident of Plymouth and a business owner in Plymouth who’s put on many events and hosted many thousands of people here in Plymouth through my events. Also, a lot of my clients in my day job are businesses in Plymouth. And as an outdoors man, I’m just as much an outdoors man as I am a businessman so I feel like I’m uniquely qualified to sort of speak to this that an area like this, the PHAT’s concept that Mark presented is really an incredibly valuable asset that we could have and a great economic driver to the community. I’m a mountain biker and a lot of people you see on this call waiting here are also mountain bikers because it’s really tight-knit community of passionate people and a lot of us happen to be pretty successful in other parts of life as well. So, I think we’re all here to sort of voice the same thing. I’m not going to speak for everybody but I really feel like I just wanted to share my support and say that I have a place up in Vermont so I’m pretty familiar with Kingdom Trails that Mark cited. But there’s also many other places that are smaller. Kingdom Trails is a massive place, but there are smaller examples of what could happen here in Plymouth all over New England, in particular Vermont where cultures develop around these centers that become drivers. People take day trips to mountain bike or go trail running, or spend a day with the dogs and go to the breweries and go to the restaurants and head to the waterfront and do all this stuff, and we already have that. We have a great robust tourism market obviously already, but this would just really bolster it and give us a really a whole new market to come to town. So, I just want to support that and really quickly, I’ve seen Betty on social media often cheerleading for the dirt bikers, and I’m not a dirt biker but I do appreciate all outdoor sports. So, I do think there should be a place for them. I think the problem that you’ll run into and this is something that could go deeper is that there will open door equestrians, it’s also opens up problems when you have dirt bikes obviously going by horses and things like that. So, I think it needs to be a separate area. I do think that’s a great conversation to have because a lot of friends who ride motorized dirt bikes, and I think people would love that. It’s a family activity. So, my last point I’d like to make, Mark’s numbers I do feel that he put in there, he mentioned that some people would say they’re high, some would say they were low. I’m one of those people that thinks they’re low based on personal experience of traveling and spending money in hotels and mountain biking with my entire family. I mean, I don’t even spend hundreds of dollars a day between hotel stays and breweries and restaurants and all that kind of stuff. Never mind spending money at like serious cycles to buy bike parts and all the stuff that anything was a trickle-down effect it would have on local businesses. So, that’s all. I think they did a great job and I really hope that all of you support it and if you have any questions about it, I think anyone on this that you see on this mosaic here of names would be more than happy to sort of share a little more with you. So, thank you very much and have a good night.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. I have some more questions for Sharl, if I may. You sent me an email several weeks ago. On the bottom of it where you signed it you had a number. I dialed the number, and I’m not a voice expert but it sounded like Frank Mann to me. I mean, I just went by the number. Was that a good call? It sounded like him.

Sharl Heller:

Probably you called the Southeastern Mass Pine Barrens Alliance Office, and Frank is certainly part of the Pine Barrens Alliance.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Yeah, because I went to the corporation’s Attorney Galvin’s office and the president of the corporation is yourself, the Treasurer is Linda Lancaster, the vice-president is Frank Mann, the clerk is Dennis Stoll, the assistant clerk is Charles Heller and the director is Sharl Heller. So, I mean, I thought this was and it probably is but you’re just a part of Elijah group, right.

Sharl Heller:

Yes.

Dick Quintal:

I’m just trying to figure this all out.

Sharl Heller:

I know it’s confusing. SEMPA (Southeastern Mass Pine Barrens Alliance) is the coordinator for a different organization called The Massachusetts Coastal Pine Barrens Partnership, and that is a regional conservation partnership with its own steering committee. We basically are the “doobies” for that. I know it’s confusing.

2:15:13

Dick Quintal:

Well, no. When I called the number, I said, “Well, it doesn’t sound,” if I hung up, I don’t know, but maybe I’d dial the wrong number. Then I went to look, and I figured it out. Well, I’m kind of figuring it out. So, we will take this up again for support, but I would like to have myself have the information. I’m sure there are other members that would too and that’s all. And I’m going to have questions, I’ll reach out to Mark and yourself if that’s possible, but we also have another site. I’m just curious for this one, the thousand-acre site that everybody’s always talking about without all the titles. How does that rank versus this one? And the second question I have is I don’t know if any of you saw it, but we did some interviews for the Town Manager tonight and all we heard about was economic development. We haven’t had any in a good long time in town as far as like a pot goes or something like that. Mark, you were a town meeting member and maybe you still are, no disrespect, but I mean, this is the kind of things you have to weigh when you sit in these chairs. You know what I mean? That’s why I use the word balance because there has to be some balance. It’s not that I don’t support what you’re trying to do. I’m going to need a little more information, but I’m definitely on board with it as far as that goes. I just need to have the details of it and how do we address? There might be another project coming down the pike. In a couple of months, we’ll know if that happens, and we have economic on that site then maybe this won’t be such everybody gleaming into it. Believe me, I’m not saying at all that I think 1200 acres should be developed. That would definitely not be where I’m coming from as one person. But as the person that I am and where I sit, I have to think of the big picture and try to get all the pieces together. I’m sure we can do it. I just need to feel comfortable speaking for me as being comfortable that I’m in. I mean, I’ve been reading all about the climate change, and I get it and I know it’s time to move on it, but I just need to figure out those other parts. That’s all.

Mark Whittington:

Yeah. No, I absolutely agree with you and I think I would encourage the town on this piece of property to really look at it from an economic analysis. Frankly, what I’ve done tonight is the start. It is by no means a full economic analysis and is as much so that you really need to look at both sides of the balance sheet. So, I’ve talked about economic input 6 to 12 million. We need to think about, “Well, how much is it going to cost to get that?” And I think that that is really at the end of the day what we really need to be thinking about is the cost of service. So, how much does it cost to do something like what we’re proposing? And how much does it cost to do other things?

One of the wonderful things about tourism as we all know is folks come to this town, we do our best to help them, take the money out of their wallet, and put it in our wallets and when they’re done, they go home. We don’t have to educate their children, we don’t have to plow their streets, we don’t have to protect their homes from fire and theft. So, there are other things that we need to do to support tourism, but I would highly encourage us to think about this from that perspective cost of service. We do need to put in that final one, which is the quality of life. I think that’s an element here that we’re all enjoying. I think we’re in a violent agreement that that’s an important element for us. So, yeah, I’d absolutely love to dig further into this and help however I can.

Dick Quintal:

All right. Any other questions for the board? Seeing none. Is there anybody else in the public who would like to comment on this or anyone wishing to speak, I should say? Chris, is there anyone wishing to speak on this? Do you know?

Chris Badot:

Not that I know of.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Thank you. Mr. Boles?

Bill Boles:

Hi! Thank you for the opportunity to speak. I just like to make one point. This is an opportunity that the town can’t overlook. Putting this much land into conservation, that’s never going to happen again.

2:20:00

Bill Boles:

The point that I really want to make is most of this discussion has been around the economic impact of doing this. I’d like to point out that the people who are going to benefit the most if this goes forward are residents of the town. They’re the ones that are going to be there every day going for a walk, walking their dogs, going for a run on the trails. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Anyone else? So, you want us to get us more information, ask a few more questions, and then maybe we can all get together one more time.

Mark Whittington:

That would be great.

Dick Quintal:

Is that okay?

Mark Whittington:

Would that work for you, Sharl?

Sharl Heller:

Yes.

Dick Quintal:

I’m going to try to get it within two weeks or by the end of the month. I want to see if we can get some of the numbers. I’ll call you and see if we can get some numbers or maybe look at a study or something that will help us, anything that will help you get the grants that you’re trying to get. So, we’ll have a discussion if that’s okay.

Sharl Heller:

Appreciate your time. Thank you.

Mark Whittington:

All right. Thank you very much.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Chris, is there anyone wishing to speak on the public comment?

Chris Badot:

Not I know of at the moment.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. We have licenses and administrative notes. For Licenses:

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Charlie Bletzer:

Move it.

Dick Quintal:

Second, Patrick?

Patrick Flaherty:

Second, yup.

Dick Quintal:

Discussion? All those in favor? Unanimous.

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Charlie BLetzer:

Move it.

Betty Cavacco:

Second.

Dick Quintal:

Second. Discussion? All those in favor? Unanimous. We have two administrative notes.

Betty Cavacco:

Move as a group.

Patrick Flaherty:

Second that.

Dick Quintal:

Harry?

Harry Helm:

Discussion. Administrative note number one, we approved $151,200 last week. I’m going to assume or is there confirmation that this is not an additional $153,200 but is instead an update of the amount they’re requesting from ARPA funds.

Lee Hartman:

Chairman Quintal?

Dick Quintal:

Yes.

Lee Hartman:

It is an additional request, and this is requested through the emergency management group. So, it’s in addition. So, we’re doubling the amount that we’ll have of tests.

Harry Helm:

What is the reason for doubling the amount of the tests?

Lee Hartman:

So, it was based on pallets and I think they basically said that they could get four pallets instead of two and they’d like to take those other two and put them in storage so they’re available when and if we need them.

Harry Helm:

Okay.

Dick Quintal:

All those in favor? Unanimous. Committee liaison report update? Old business? Letters? New business? And just to let everybody know there’ll be no executive session. We don’t need either/or. A motion to adjourn?

Harry Helm

Motion.

Charlie Bletzer:

Motion.

Dick Quintal:

And we’ll see you Friday morning at 9 00 AM. Thank you very much. Have a good night, everybody.