Agenda – Plymouth Select Board 7-12-22 Agenda

Official Minutes – Plymouth Select Board Minutes 7-12-22

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Dick Quintal:

Select Boards meeting of July 12th, 2022. Please join the Board in the Pledge to the Flag.

All:
I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Welcome everybody. At this time, I’d like to turn it over to our sponsor, Mrs. Cavacco.

Betty Cavacco:

Good afternoon, everyone and welcome to the Tuesday, June 12^th, for the Selectman meeting. I will be here remotely and turning over the meeting to Mr. Quintal. I am recovering from major surgery and just didn’t feel up to joining. So, I’m here if anybody has any questions or concerns and I will be in discussion amongst the Board as well for this meeting.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Is there anyone wishing to speak on the public comment? Please come up to the microphone, make sure the green light is on and identify yourself for the record, please.

Maggie Sheehan:

Green light is on. My name is Maggie Sheehan and I am a fourth generation Plymouth native, and I’m here to talk about an opportunity for the town to join with our Conservation Coalition to work on outreach and education on the coastal plain ponds that we have here in Plymouth. This issue keeps coming up kind of every summer when we have overflow swimming in places that are not really open for swimming that don’t have lifeguards and we get lots of concerns and cyanobacteria outbreaks and whatnot. And in particular, I want to talk about the situation that everybody might hear about with Drew Road and the parking. Little bit of the history on how we got there and how we can hopefully work together with the town and this coalition to provide safe and suitable recreational opportunities for the residents and others.

So, we’re talking about the South Ponds region. It’s kind of on the old maps as South Pond. You might know if you drive out Long Pond Road, you’ll see on the right-hand side the Eel River Restoration project, that was the subject of millions of dollars of state and federal funds with Trout Unlimited to restore the headwaters of the Eel River. if you go down Drew Road behind the middle school, you will come upon the town forest, and if you keep going all the way, you’ll come to Rocky Pond Road and Belington Sea is also out that way. So, these lands are conserved and it’s been a long time 30-year effort that I have been personally involved with as well as my parents. And it started off with the first Cortelli Preserve named after my grandparents at one end of the pond, and then the town got a grant from the state to establish the town forest at the other end of the pond. Then we had the federal government come in and do another preserve, and then a couple of years ago my parents donated over 300 acres on the pond a mile of waterfront.

So, the reason we all did this is because this is a globally rare ecosystem, and maybe those of us who grew up in Plymouth know the sights and the scents of the pine barrens forests and the rare plants and I’m ripping a little bit here, but my father would take us out walking around great south to learn the Latin names of all the plants and really instilled and I think a lot of people in the town, a real love for these rare ecosystems. So, a lot of money, time and energy has been invested in this. This land is open for hiking and recreation. There are wonderful trails all throughout the town forest, and the concern is that with the town forest, there was a conservation restriction that was put in place in about 2000, I would say and it abuts the second Cortelli Preserve, which is on the west side of Great South Pond. And when the conservation restriction was drafted by the state and the town and the town was paid to put the conservation restriction on, it didn’t have let’s just say the best-defined management plan on how the town would be managing those two parking spots on Drew Road for fishing only.

[0:05:10]

Maggie Sheehan:

So, we’ve gotten into this situation where people aren’t really fully educated about where to park, how to recreate responsibly. And again, we have this globally rare ecosystem right next to Myles Standish State Forest and we have other models where ponds like this have been kept intact for their globally rare significance. This is part of the town’s water supply so you may remember many people that this was the town water supply for decades and decades while we grew up and there was no swimming there. And then the federal government said, “You can’t have a surface water supply for your drinking water.” So, we put in the wells on Rocky Pond Road and now we get the water out of there, but this is also a backup water supply for the town. If the town ever needed to take one of the wells offline, they’d be pulling water out of these ponds. So, we need to keep that water clean, and that means controlling swimming and other recreational areas.

So, what are we doing? We have had a study done by Mass Audubon by one of their ecologists to identify all of the properties around the ponds and a program for reaching out to homeowners on education and how we can all work together to preserve the water quality. And I know it’s not just an issue with these ponds, but there are many ponds throughout the town and there are many ponds in the town that are set up for recreation that have lifeguards and suitable parking. And so, we need to have a program, we think, in order to direct people to the proper places for swimming and recreation and not have kind of a fire drill every summer, which is kind of how it seems to us sometimes.

So, we are planning to put together some educational materials about safe recreation and appropriate recreation and about these ponds and how they can be a real resource for the town, how we can be good stewards now, and cultivate future stewards either through the schools, educating our natural resource officers. And we’re putting together materials and we hope the town will partner with us on that and we think that we can get maybe some grant money from the Make America Great Program. And one of the things that we’re thinking of reviving and this is my final pitch is I don’t know if you’ve ever seen this before but when we first started working on the Coastal Plain Pond Education and Outreach Program, we had a very well-known natural resource artist I guess Gordon Morrison did this and we partnered with the State Fish and Wildlands Trust, it’s called Treasures of our Natural Heritage and Coastal Plain Ponds of Southeastern Mass as the title and we worked with the state and with the nature conservancy and with these private conservation groups to print this and distribute it free to everyone. And we also did a booklet that went with it that educated people about why the ponds were important for water quality for our drinking water and their globally rare plants and animals.

So, many people who live on these ponds still have this poster hanging in their house and I couldn’t even get anybody to give up one of the little booklets so that I could bring it here and show it to you. So, that’s what we’d like to do and we hope that the town will join with us in working with our South Ponds Conservation Group. And I’d love to take you on a personal tour of the Cortelli 1 and Cortelli 2 Preserve and the Town Forest so we can see how we can get the lay of the land and figure out how to work together. And I’m happy to answer any questions.

Dick Quintal:

Any questions for Mrs. Sheehan?

Betty Cavacco:

I actually don’t have a question, but I do have a comment. Derek, could you have our new Climate Resiliency Coordinator touch base with Mrs. Sheehan, and maybe they can discuss how to move forward as a town.

Derek Brindisi:

Yes. I’m happy to do that. We’ll make that connection.

Maggie Sheehan:

That’s a great point, Betty.

[0:10:00]

Maggie Sheehan:

In fact, the Wildlands Trust had a study done on the climate resiliency of the Coastal Plain Ponds and why the Cortelli Preserve is important for climate resiliency in Plymouth, so we’d be happy to share that with you.

Betty Cavacco:

Well, maybe with this gentleman. He’s new and we can work together and have a plan that you’re happy with, we’re happy with and everybody’s happy.

Maggie Sheehan:

Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

Derek, would you also add for the resiliency coordinator to coordinate with Ms. Sheehan this tour and set it up, so it doesn’t just fall off into Netherland.

Derek Brindisi:

Sure. I will do that.

Harry Helm:

Okay. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer?

Charlie Bletzer:

Yeah, Meg, specifically what kind of support are you looking for from the town with?

Maggie Sheehan:

Working together on putting together the educational materials for suitable recreation. I get questions all the time, “Where can I swim in Plymouth?” And I think it would be great if we had a booklet that we could hand out, put in the tourist destinations and work on a plan for having the Natural Resource Officers fully educated and funded so that they can do their job and don’t feel like they’re overwhelmed and they’re trained, and they know what they’re trying to do in terms of protecting the ponds.

Charlie Bletzer:

So, for Derek, question, which department? Would that be under the recreation?

Derek Brindisi:

The Natural Resource Officers report directly to David Gould under the Marine and Environmental Affairs.

Charlie Bletzer:

Okay, very good.

Dick Quintal:

I know in the past we had some issues there with the parking, and David brought before us a plan and limit it. There were some residents who were not very happy in the way that they felt they couldn’t use the ponds. So, I think if we educate them and you make a book, and that’s probably the proper way to do it because they feel like they’re paying their taxes, which they are and nobody wants to take away a right like that. So, I’m in for the tour too. I’d love to see what’s going on. And well, I have you here and I don’t know the answer but conservation restrictions, you brought up maybe using one of the surface for a well if that need be the case. We have some issues in town that aren’t major issues, but could be but hadn’t we had conservation restrictions on the land that we have now in conservation, we could actually move the water like a utility easement. So, it’s just something to, you know, I’m not saying this pond, but you did bring it up and that’s the first thing I thought of. Do we have a utility easement to move water?

Maggie Sheehan:

Okay. So, I’ll address that. There are conservation restrictions on all of these pieces that I mentioned. I think there’s four in total, and the one that controls the Drew Road parking is the one with the state, and that’s the one that says “Parking for Fishing Only.” The wells, the Department of Public Works has their wells out there, when those came online, the town never put in place any regulations for emergency backup use of those and how to protect the pond in order to protect the water. I have actually talked to the State DEP about this, and they say, “Well, once you have your wells, we’re not going to tell you how to protect your backup water supply.” So, that might be something the DPW wants to look at how to protect this as a backup water supply.

Dick Quintal:

Okay, thank you.

Maggie Sheehan:

You’re welcome.

Dick Quintal:

Any other questions or comments? Seeing none. Thank you very much.

Maggie Sheehan:

Okay, great. Thank you very much.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on the public comment? Please come up, make sure the green light is on and identify yourself please for the record.

Kate Sekerak:

Green light is on. I’m Kate Sekerak, 26 Bradford Street. I’m here for two reasons actually but on behalf of the Bradford Area Commission, which is working with, for those of you who aren’t familiar, the Marina Project, the new proposed building site. The town was going to do a legal review of the project and I just wanted to see if there was any news that you could share with myself and the rest of all of us. Derek?

[0:15:07]

Derek Brindisi:

So, you’re right. We did meet with town counsel. We asked him to review this ongoing project and to provide an opinion as to the authority the ZBA had and the Planning Board had in respect to this project. I did receive a message today from our Planning Director that we would expect this legal review to be complete sometime tomorrow.

Kate Sekerak:

Okay, great. All right. Just checking in on that. Second thing is I would like to caution the town about some issues that are happening in the Bradford Area in terms of parking and congestion, some things that I’ve observed so far this summer. So, I just want to paint a picture for all of you if you want to just think about what I’m going to say here in order, you can close your eyes if you want to but imagine the perfect storm of traffic on a beautiful Friday afternoon, Saturday morning when you turn down Water Street and you now have the Water Street Condo Towers, which have construction vehicles right now coming in and out backing in and out parking on the side of the street, blocking traffic. Soon, those will be residents coming in and out, and you have that corner where people are coming down to Water Street, used to coming around the corner. You have a crosswalk that is frankly really dangerous because you don’t dare step out because you’ve got people trying to turn left, turn right, come out of the reliable cleaners, come out of Town Brook Gas Station. So, this is all as you know within a very small space. So, next, I want you to imagine Water Street Café where that is situated and people walking across those crosswalks with dogs, with strollers. And then I want you to imagine coming around the corner of Union Street, where there is one sidewalk, one small sidewalk. Currently, there is illegal perpendicular parking all the way along the left side of the marina and there are pedestrians walking behind those cars and there are cyclists riding behind those cars and people with carriages and with dogs, one small sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.

Now, the marina along with the Surf Side Restaurant has a new parking attendant who is there it seems on busy late week afternoons and weekends. This individual is turning people away if they are not there to park for the marina, to go out on a boat or for the restaurant. So, now, you have cars backing out onto Union Street. So, picture this small space again, all these cars, all these people, all this activity. Next, you have the fuel truck that comes along to fuel the marina’s pumps. That idles for 20 to 25 minutes double parked and unattended on the street, not inside of their parking area. You have two-way traffic trying to come in and out of Union Street, one sidewalk. Couple weeks ago, two Saturdays in a row, we had a fire truck and an ambulance for a medical emergency at the restaurant. So, now, we have a fire truck, an ambulance, two-way traffic, pedestrians, cyclists, two cyclists on the sidewalk when I was walking my mini dachshund and I said, “You shouldn’t be on the sidewalk,” and they said, “Well, we didn’t want to get hit by the ambulance,” and I said, “Well, sidewalk is for pedestrians. You can walk your bike,” and then they told me, “I hope you get hit by a car.”

Then you have all the side streets coming out Bradford Street, Freedom Street all trying to pull out of their little yards, you have the one-way Bradford Street, all of the boats and traffic coming to the marina, massive trailers with massive boats and massive trucks pulling them and they’re trying to make a left on Union Street out of one-way Bradford Street.

[0:20:04]

Kate Sekerak:

One sidewalk, illegal perpendicular parking all the way along the left. I am here to caution the town, somebody’s going to get hurt, somebody’s going to get backed into. We’ll watch to see how many car accidents there will be and have been, but it’s a real, real serious danger and I’m just a resident trying to walk a little dog. So, imagine it. No more building in our little area, please. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Anyone else wishing to speak on the public comment? Okay. Derek, it just made me think of something after the last citizen. Nathaniel Morton School, the PGDC always had some kind of agreement with the school department to use it for parking. And I believe it’s been closed right now, and I think it may be because Brad, you can help me, is it because they’re doing the roof there?

Brad Brothers:

Correct.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. So, could you just find out when it’ll be when they–do you know when?

Brad Brothers:

It probably won’t be active all summer. The construction is going to go on probably up until even the beginning of school year. Exactly. We touch base with Park Plymouth and they were going to update their maps and their sites on their website and everything, so they’ve been informed. So, it should be updated on their website.

Dick Quintal:

Okay, because the residents were calling, it was right before 4th of July naturally probably some people from the Art Club. You forgot the art club.

Kate Sekerak:

I forgot the Art Club.

Dick Quintal:

Yes, you did. I understand. So, okay. If you could just check that out though because they do use that. All right?

Betty Cavacco:

Mr. Quintal?

Dick Quintal:

Yes, Mrs. Cavacco?

Betty Cavacco:

So, with that being said, and I know the board has also received complaints about the gate at Stephens Field being locked now. That might alleviate some of these issues as well. So, I know Derek, you were checking with the chief about it, but I think where all this construction is going on and everything, I think unfortunately that cut through would alleviate a lot of our traffic coming off of Court Street or whatever the street is right there. So, if we could revisit that because I want to see that gate open and so do many of our residents. We’ve gotten a lot of emails about it.

Derek Brindisi:

Yeah. I mean, we’ve been trying to determine the issue around the Stephens Field gate. As you know, those gates are kept open during the school year to help with the buses and then they close upon school closure. Both chiefs don’t have any history as to who made the decision to close those gates upon school closure. They seemed to believe that it was the neighborhood that asked for that to take place because of the cut through traffic, but nobody has any history. So, certainly, we can open them up. I just would caution the group that if we were to open them up that we may get complaints from the neighbors saying that this cut through traffic. So, we won’t know until we actually open the gates.

Betty Cavacco:

Maybe we can do it just to see how it goes.

Derek Brindisi:

Sure.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Next, we’re going to move on to the MVCI- Simes House Management Renewal Request. Who will be presenting?

Derek Brindisi:

Ms. Curtin will be.

Donna Curtin:

Thank you. To the Select Board, we’re very happy to have the opportunity to be on tonight’s agenda. Thank you. I’m Donna Curtin and I’m the President of Manomet Village Common Inc., that’s MVCI, and we’re the entity that manages the historic 1863 Simes House under contract with the town. I do have a little background because a lot of folks hear MVCI and they have no idea what it is or what’s been happening down there for the last few years.

[0:25:01]

Donna Curtin:

We were established as a 501(c)(3) nonprofit organization in 2017 for the purpose of preserving and repurposing the historic site as a cultural resource and a community center for Plymouth and especially for the village of Manomet. We are an all-volunteer, unpaid non-profit organization and I’m here tonight with some of our officers and some other members of our board to request an extension of our management agreement for the term of at least one additional year with some revision of terms.

Our current five-year management agreement is due to expire this Thursday, July 14th. I would like to acknowledge that there have been many individuals and different groups and organizations who have given blood, sweat and tears and all of that effort has preceded our current organization. Many folks in our community work tremendously hard to bring the Simes House from a derelict building that was acquired by the town back in 2019 for non-payment of taxes, and those folks brought it from this to this. So, credit to all those who have come before.

As many of you know, but I reiterate for those that are unfamiliar with this story. This property was restored with 4.5 million in Community Preservation funding. It was completed and opened to the public in 2017 with two affordable housing units’ way up there in the top on that third floor, four small offices for rent on the second floor and on the first floor, there are four of the original parlors that are now small meeting rooms for community use and private events. There is a deeded restriction that has been placed in perpetuity on this building and held by the state and there’s also a deeded restriction on the affordable housing units.

In the five years since the incorporation of our organization, MVCI, we have faced what we might think of as the ordinary challenges for a little group of volunteers creating a non-profit organization and starting up from scratch in order to develop and implement the plan for this property, but also, we have faced the extraordinary and unforeseeable challenges of a global pandemic. And despite many obstacles in these last couple of years, we are operational. We have a determined group who are very eager to pursue recovery strategies and also to be open to new ideas, partnerships and possibilities because the point of all this is to ensure the sustainability of this significant historic property and ensure also that the very high level of financial investment that our community put into this property provides benefits for us for the long time to come. And if we can make that value to our people a reality, that truly has been the challenge but I must say the pandemic hasn’t helped us to achieve it. Our original fiscal and financial model was based on a very simple plan of revenue from the affordable housing units secondary but almost equivalent in value was the income from office rentals, supplemental income from small events and functions, memberships and donations and other forms of support.

The pre-pandemic picture shows well the kind of small deficits that you might expect of any startup business that are typical as they’re gaining ground and then we started to hit a more robust performance in the third year of our operations as we began to hit our stride. Net income in 2019 was $13,572 dollars and in that year, there were 89 events held at the property. Most of these were not revenue generating. They were purely community events, but even so that was a pretty impressive level of activity for the site. However, this basic financial model is a heavy lift for a small group like ours. Fixed expenses are always going up. It is very expensive to maintain this grand historic building and its grounds and we voluntarily agreed to include in the original agreement with the town the additional imposition of pilot payment in lieu of taxes and usage fees to be paid to the town beginning in 2020. So, this is not at all an easy model to make work and especially if your principal goal is to produce enough revenue to consistently and continually reinvest in the building in order to maintain it and preserve it. But still, we were making some progress and then the pandemic hit.

So, here is a look at five-year net and you can see that dividing line of what happened after 2019. And I will simply say that this is not a robust financial picture by any means, but I think it might be one that would look familiar to any small business that has been struggling to survive what has been happening to our economy and our communities over the past two and a half years. Now, if we looked at that 2019 as a possible benchmark of what a non-pandemic operation for MVCI would look like, you can see that the areas of income and our expense is broken down there.

[0:30:12]

Donna Curtin:

And I would also just point out to you that those office rentals comprise a very core component of our overall budget at almost 40% of overall income was being derived from the office revenue. So, this pandemic shift that occurred to home offices and remote work has hit us extremely hard.

Now, let’s go forward to a snapshot of performance in 2021. You can notice we are down about 86% in that line of business rental income and that market has remained flat. We have clean beautiful office suites on the second floor of that gorgeous building, they are empty. So, the second-floor rental suites obviously need some rethinking in this model, and I know there’s beginning to be discussion amongst the Select Board as to some new approaches, how some of these areas including office spaces might be utilized for municipal or other purposes. And our board has also been discussing potential new strategies including the possibility of perhaps converting that second floor to artists collaborative and studio space. The idea of having artists attached to the historic property and bringing in a wave of community creativity and community activity is very exciting to us.

We would certainly welcome and support an opportunity to study and consider a wider slate of options going forward. We would be happy to be part of such an effort in whatever way we could be useful.

Betty Cavacco:

Excuse me, Mrs. Curtin? How much longer do you need? You’re at six minutes.

Donna Curtin:

I think I would need another three minutes.

Betty Cavacco:

Okay.

Donna Curtin:

Thank you. So, I would merely point out that while many facilities were unable to accommodate public gatherings and remain close last year, we actually did successfully manage to host a number of public events in 2021. And as a central purpose of the SImes House is to serve as a community gathering place for Manomet, we were absolutely delighted to be able to come to the aid of the Manomet Public Library when they needed a place to host their summer story times for children last year as the town libraries remain closed.

We also hosted a free public concert, a Labor Day picnic. We hosted the first annual Manomet Pumpkin Fest in October and thanks to the support of Quintal Brothers Wholesale Fruit and Produce for supporting that event. We had a small holiday open house and we’re delighted to see some members of the Manomet community come by and kind of reconnect with us.

I would say that our current board is very keenly aware of the need to rebuild community connection to this property. This building should not be an empty shell. It needs to fulfill the vision for why it was restored to be an active and meaningful place for our residents and we’re very ready to work towards this goal in partnership with the town or with other agencies and entities going forward. So, one of the things that we are doing right now is we have a group of our current organizational goals and objectives and if our management agreement with the Town of Plymouth is renewed, this is kind of the game plan for what we’re going to be doing going forward. Ticking those boxes of how the property is operated, but we have included this idea of studying other potential uses for the site in collaboration with the town.

We’re also working rather hard on developing something that I think that the town has wanted to create for many of its own facilities, a comprehensive plan to identify budget for and address building needs proactively so that the site’s historic character is preserved and also, so that we can raise some public awareness of its significance. And most importantly, so that this historic structure does not fall into decline again. This facilities plan is also a tool to steward the affordable housing units in the building. These contribute to that important inventory for our town, and also, our intention is to try to ensure the well-being of our tenants. We currently have two tenants under lease with our organization. And one reason that we hope that you will renew our management agreement tonight is in part to ensure that there are no legal complications or issues for our tenants if we are no longer in a position to hold these leases come Thursday.

Let me be precise about what we are requesting tonight. We had hoped originally to request a full five-year extension with additional consideration that would allow us to direct more resources to the care of the property under these current circumstances. However, to accommodate what we are hearing about the town’s growing interest in possible municipal or related usages for the Simes House, we are now requesting a shorter-term extension of at least a year to continue under the previous terms and conditions with two exceptions: that the payment of any and all pilot and usage fees would be both retroactively waived as there is one pending now, and also would no longer be required or imposed on MVCI going forward.

[0:35:09]

Donna Curtin:

In other words, it would be eliminated from the agreement and also that the Town of Plymouth would consider assuming some level of responsibility for some level of outside maintenance most notably the snow removal of the driveway paved parking area of the facilities. And in closing, I would just like to say that there was a great deal of enthusiasm, expertise and energy on our board to continue this recovery process we’ve been going through and to rebuild the Simes House as an engaged and active center of community and especially for Manomet. And we thank those members of the board who came down to visit the site with us and tour us the other day. And look forward to answering your questions we are very committed to making this work. We thank you for your consideration and hope that you will give us the chance to continue our involvement with this magnificent historic site. Thank you for the additional time. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Any questions from the Board? Mr. Helm?

Betty Cavacco:

I have a couple.

Dick Quintal:

And then Mrs. Cavacco.

Betty Cavacco:

You know what, let Mr. Helm go first and then Mr. Bletzer.

Harry Helm:

Ms. Curtin, why were we only presented with this proposal basically 7 days prior to contract expiration?

Donna Curtin:

I actually did send it on June 22nd to the Town Manager.

Harry Helm:

Okay.

Donna Curtin:

I would say that we’ve been working very hard during this period of the pandemic and the rather crushing impact that it had on the financial model for this operation. We also had a major transition in our board. This kind of thing happens during a public health crisis and there were resignations and people moving. So, we’ve had actually complete turnabout. We think of our current board members, most of whom joined during the pandemic and in 2021 as the rescue team coming in but it has been difficult under the public health crisis to actually transition. People weren’t meeting face-to-face and just pulling all this together. So, I think ideally, Mr. Helm, it would have been certainly better to have gotten our request but I would say however that in the terms of the original agreement, it’s very clear that we were going to be sitting down and talking with one another and deciding whether or not you wanted to go forward with renewing the agreement or not. Thank you.

Harry Helm:

Okay. Another question not related. I understand that in the revision of terms, you want the pilot agreement eliminated and am I correct in believing that there have been no pilot agreement payments. I know $10,000 worth was suspended last year back in April of 2021.

Donna Curtin:

I believe that we went in February of 2021 to the Select Board and requested because of the impact of the pandemic but there was one pilot payment, one quarter pilot and there’s a dual fee. There’s a pilot payment and a usage fee together that are imposed. I don’t know the exact numbers. I think it’s 319 for the usage fee and 690 something for the other one or vice versa. But there was one payment made that is on our books for 2020 and then we did ask that the rest of it be waived and the Board very kindly allowed us the type of recovery that I think many other small businesses in our community were receiving from both state, local and federal authorities at that time.

Harry Helm:

So, did you apply for CARES Act funding to help bridge the situation with COVID?

Donna Curtin:

No. I became in December of 2020 and I don’t believe CARES Act funding was available at that time. There were some other programs that were available and many of them were structured for organizations that actually have staff. We don’t have staff. So, some of those things weren’t available to us such as PPP. I know that kept a lot of small businesses afloat. We couldn’t apply for those funds. And I tell you, as I say, it was like passing the baton on a moving train to make the transition that we did during a public crisis with a complete transition in the Board.

Harry Helm:

Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

John?

John Mahoney:

Donna, I met with Stephen Cole this afternoon for approximately an hour, economic development and he was unaware that we were meeting tonight. And I told him what the topic was. And so, I did discuss the revenue streams with him and told him about the two residential units on the top floor, but he was unaware of the office space so he didn’t know that. So, depending on how this goes, it’s worthy of a conversation moving forward.

Donna Curtin:

Thank you, Mr. Mahoney.

[0:40:03]

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer?

Betty Cavacco:

Can’t hear you, Charlie.

Charlie Bletzer:

Sorry about that. So, I went down there. I had never gone into the Simes House, to be honest with you. So, it was a good day. It was a good visit for me. I was on town meeting when we gave the money for the Simes House. It was a lot of money, but it was presented that it was going to be the Manomet’s Center. It was going to be like a Manomet Town Hall almost, and I was excited because I think the people of South Plymouth deserve to have something like that in their neighborhoods. It’s kind of a long haul for some people to get up to into the Town Hall. So, I was excited. And they talked about having a function facility to pay for it, and I envisioned something different when I walked in there the other day. I couldn’t believe the kitchen is not even a kitchen. In fact, it’s got a refrigerator that you’d put in an apartment and it doesn’t even have a plug. The wire goes across the hall.

Donna Curtin:

I get just as choked up about that refrigerator.

Charlie Bletzer:

What I saw when I toured was an empty building. It was clean, but I saw water damage from the splitters upstairs that hasn’t been repaired, the building needs to be painted. There’s money available for that and it hasn’t been painted. The grounds outside are neglected. I mean, no disrespect to the board. I know you’ve been trying, but I don’t know if you’re over your head or it’s just you need help there, and there’s two low affordable housing which we need up there, the offices are empty. I’m hearing about COVID, but COVID is really over and things are starting to get back to normal. I was really distraught when I saw those officers empty. I thought there was income coming from those offices. And then my biggest concern was there’s no events there. Nothing’s happening there. I saw something about real estate on Saturdays. And again, I’m not being critical, Donna, but there’s nothing going on there. There’s no income being brought in. So, my thing is I really feel and I’m not sure how the Board does, but I think we should take this building back because this building is tax moneys, $4.5 million of your tax money, the citizens tax money and it’s to be utilized for the residents of Plymouth. So, we need to do a study. We need to find what’s the best use for this building. To sell it, it’s probably with the deed restrictions that might not be an option, I don’t know. But I just think we have to find out the best usage for that building.

And I would like the Town manager to have some say in that and look into that because right now, there’s nothing happening there unless you can tell me different. As far as the CARES Act, we just got a lot of money from the county. There was still money in 2021 with the CARES Act. The county had a lot of money. We’ve gotten, I don’t know how much fun from the county recently, so there was still money around. We should have applied for grant money. And again, you just got involved in 2020, but in five years, the place is going into disrepair right now. So, I just think you need help and I think we need to take the building back and do a study on that.

Donna Curtin:

Might I respond?

Charlie Bletzer:

Go ahead, yeah.

Donna Curtin:

I certainly don’t disagree. I’ve been in non-profit management for 40 years, and I don’t know a single non-profit that doesn’t need help. I think non-profit management is the toughest business there is. There are never enough resources and the level of mission that those organizations undertake is always a tremendously overwhelming undertaking. Let’s put it that way. So, yeah, of course, we need help. Sure, we need help. We may think the pandemic is over, but the impacts of the pandemic aren’t over.

[0:45:02]

Donna Curtin:

I was just reading an article I think in the New York Times about just huge sweep across the country of what’s happened with office rentals. Entire suburban complexes that were developed and built for people to rent offices are now empty and abandoned. So, you’re right, it is empty and we need to bring life back into it and that takes one thing that we are asking you for tonight and that is some time. However, I would say we are very open if the town–I don’t think we’ve heard this story before the town wants to do something with this building that would preserve the intent of the investment of those community preservation monies as a community center. It’s a place for people to gather with the preservation restriction because you’ve got to realize whatever happens in that building, you’re going to be running affordable housing out of it and you’re going to have to be preserving it to a high standard of preservation. So, if that fits with what the town thinks going forward, I would say all for it. We’d be very happy to work with you on getting there, but I do think you need some time to investigate that. And that’s why we are making the request for a short-term renewal of this agreement. So, you’re not just leaving things in the lurch.

Charlie Bletzer:

Well, and the other thing too is you’re requesting not to pay and lower taxes and you want the town to make do some maintaining the outside. So, this thing was appropriated, the funds were appropriated for this building to preserve it and for it to be self-sustained through a non-profit and it’s going to be used by the citizens of Plymouth. None of that is happening right now, and that’s my concern. I’m concerned about that. $4.5 million is a lot of money. It’s a lot of money and I look at the building and again, anybody that’s been involved in this, I don’t want to disrespect anybody but where did the money go?

Donna Curtin:

The non-profit is non-profit for a reason. I’ve argued before this Board in the past about pilot agreements. I’ve always been strongly opposed to them because I think they place a burden on institutions that are trying to do good work usually on a volunteer or underpaid basis that they feel benefits their community and they’re working always with slender resources. So, I think the pilot agreement was something that the MVCI in an earlier iteration of its board put that burden on its own shoulders, because the town didn’t ask for it. It was offered. And now, we’re saying under the circumstances coming out of these last few years, that’s really too much. We can’t take that on. We do need some relief, and we’re actually asking you for help just the same way restaurants came and asked for help and say, “What can you do for us? Can you do the outdoor dining? Can you help us with our staffing? Can you do those kinds of things?” Well, our model is a little different. It’s going to take a longer time to rebuild especially as you know we don’t have the facilities to just pop in there and start doing activities. There are limited facilities in the building for us to work with, but the big nut to crack is what happens on that second floor. And I think you’ve got some really great ideas about that, and I think we should be able to pursue those with you but I do think you need an interim plan and I think we’re your best bet.

Charlie Bletzer:

Can I ask you in five years, the offices upstairs, what income gets come from those offices? Have they been rented?

Donna Curtin:

The last time that we had and it wasn’t full occupancy in 2019, I think was about $23,200 was brought in that year in the office rentals that year. So, that’s kind of our baseline model. So, I mean, this isn’t a–

Charlie Bletzer:

And that’s for four offices?

Donna Curtin:

Yeah. Manomet is a different community and we’ve slashed actually those prices because as I say that particular real estate sector is just incredibly flat right now. And eventually, it may come back. We don’t know what’s going to happen with people remoting home and what their choices are so we need to think creatively right now, but we do need your help. You’re absolutely right. We need your help and we’re asking for your help in some specific ways if you renew it.

Charlie Bletzer:

Yeah. We definitely need a plan, that’s for sure. We do.

Dick Quintal:

Mrs. Cavacco and then Mr. Cabana.

Betty Cavacco:

So, I have a lot to say. I don’t necessarily know if I’m going to say everything that I should be saying, but first and foremost, I want to clarify that having a volunteer staff does not disqualify any group from applying for any of the CARES Act or COVID Dollars. So, just to get that out straight.

I know Mrs. Curtin that you feel like you’re facing the gauntlet but we have been in receipt of several emails and I’m rather disgusted by every single bit of them. The building cannot be self-sustained. You have obviously internal issues that you’re dealing with.

[0:50:07]

Betty Cavacco:

Quite frankly reading all of them, I felt that a certain board member was bullied, and I am just beside myself that people would put those kinds of things in writing. I am not supporting this extension, because the town has to take responsibility like everybody in this room has criticized us for that we never do. Well, we’re taking the responsibility now. This is our building, our poor taxpayers paid $4.5 million for this building, which has not done anything really for the community.

I have a letter from the Manomet Village Steering Committee that also says the same thing and quite frankly, I am so upset about things that I’ve read, that I have asked the Town Manager to seek legal counsel advice. We can’t have that type of behavior from any of our chairman, any of our boards, any of our committees. It just can’t happen. And it certainly is not going to happen on my watch or this Board’s watch. Considering calling the Board of Selectmen a gauntlet when we have had so many positive affirmations from so many different boards and committees is not only insulting, but it’s just simply untrue. So, I just want to put it out there. I am not supporting it. The town needs to take it back. We need to have the keys in hand on the 14th and Mr. Brindisi needs to get an assessment out there immediately with our town staff and even if we have to hire an independent person to do that.

The skylights are leaking, you had animals in there, there’s no fire escape or a way for people to run out of that building. It’s a disaster and it’s time to stop the bleed and do what we’ve been elected to do and represent the taxpayers of Plymouth and that’s my plan.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. I see you but I already went to Mr. Cabana and then you’ll be after that. And then Ms. Bartlett and then Mr. Peck.

Charlie Bletzer:

Can I speak?

Dick Quintal:

Yeah, go ahead.

Charlie Bletzer:

Derek, question, do you have a plan if we don’t renew this contract? And what is your plan?

Derek Brindisi:

Good question. To the chair, so, in anticipation of tonight’s vote not knowing which direction the board will vote, I did have our staff meeting like we do every Tuesday morning and I’ve asked Mr. Brothers to my right to take the lead on organizing town departments, fire, DPW, inspectional services and others to go to the to the building to do a complete inspection of the facility so that we know exactly what the current conditions are and have to put any resources in place if necessary to bring it up to appropriate standards. In addition to that, I’m working with Mr. Badot across the room from me who’s already sought town counsel to review the lease agreements to determine whether or not those agreements can be transferred or if they have to be renegotiated with the town. So, those are the short answers or the short plans to take over Simes House, if necessary.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Cabana and then you, okay?

Harry Helm:

Lou, unmute yourself.

Louis Cabana:

Thank you. I’m sorry, I just unmuted. Thank you to the Board for allowing me to speak. I’m here tonight first as a private citizen and secondly as the vice-chair of the Manomet Village Steering Committee. And I would like to offer my inputs to the Board for consideration.

First of all, in terms of the Manomet Village Steering Committee, I think the current management team in charge of this building has been somewhat in remiss in not reaching out to the Manomet Village Steering Committee and engaging them and seeking their assistance and helping them to overcome their challenges, and quite frankly they are.

The second thing as a private citizen having reviewed their current business plan, I found it lacking in a number of areas.

[0:55:07]

Louis Cabana:

First of all, we all know that the pandemic was quite serious. However, the pandemic officially didn’t start until 2020. So, there were three years where revenue would be accrued and so on. However, nowhere could I find the business plan what the expenditures were. And so, my question would be to the current management team is how much does it cost to take care of this building and what additional revenue streams are you planning? It’s always a challenge to come up with innovative ways, and the key to doing that I think is to involve participation from the community with groups such as the Manomet Village Steering Committee and another concerned citizen group to try and make this a go. I mean, it’s a gorgeous building and it’s an asset that could quite frankly not only serve the village of Manomet but also the Town of Plymouth. So, I think that there are some work to be done and quite frankly, I find the current business plan somewhat lacking. So, thank you again for listening to my concerns.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Yeah, you can come up here. Make sure the green light is on and identify yourself please for the record. And then Karen.

Victoria Costa:

My name is Victoria Costa. I’m one of the residents at the Simes House. I’m not very much for public speaking so pardon me. I have a question. First, can you please tell me who is responsible for the distribution of CPA funds to restore this building?

Harry Helm:

It was through town meeting.

Victoria Costa:

Okay. So, Manomet Village Common wasn’t responsible for that restoration?

Harry Helm:

No. They were not responsible.

Victoria Costa:

Based on living there I would like to say that the restoration I would be shocked to find that it was a $4.5 million restoration. Personally, I would like to just make that known. It’s something you might want to consider before taking ownership or management back. My main concern as somebody living there especially after your comments just now is a disconnect between my lease, which is only half used and my neighbor’s lease as well. We don’t either of us have anywhere else to really go. Of course, there’s options if you get desperate but Betty Cavacco knows my grandma so she knows she’d never turn me away. I don’t want Betty to tell my grandma I said she wouldn’t let me live with her, but I am 28 years old so I’d prefer to keep my apartment.

Our big concern, yeah, is just that there’s continuity if this lease is not continued with the Manomet Village Common who I think maybe I don’t know if you’re in over your head but I think you guys have been really responsive to all our needs as much as they are able to as a volunteer group, and I appreciate that as many landlords as I’ve had. They’ve really been there to respond when we need them, but our main concern is definitely our living situation. Something to consider also I think might be worth thinking about is ramp up time if you were to take over the contract. And what if a year for them is going to give them the opportunity to maybe bring in a new business model with your help without your help versus how long that’s going to take you guys to take over and establish and bring back into the green. And parking is a little tight for municipal offices I would just say that as well. That’s about all I’ve got for you. Sorry, if I’m a little shaky. Thank you for listening.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you.

Derek Brindisi:

If I could, Mr. Chairman. I just want to address the first and probably biggest concern is we don’t and I want to be very clear no one’s getting evicted. This young lady is going to have a home whether it’s controlled by the town or whether or not it’s controlled by the management association. So, I don’t want you to walk away tonight feeling that you are not going to have a home, because we just need to figure out whether or not you have to sign a new lease agreement with the town or we can transfer the existing lease agreement on the town if, again, if the board were to move in that direction. So, I just want you to feel comfortable tonight.

[1:00:05]

Dick Quintal:

Mrs. Bukes [?]?

Mrs. Bukes [?]

Thank you. A little background, and I’ll use the word conception. I was there with a handful of people on town meeting floor when this property came up. We had no idea it was being considered for a 40B, and we rallied. Precinct 7 within a matter of minutes, this is what I love about town meeting, got together and with the grace of the town moderator, we were able to put some sort of plan together within minutes and we saved the property.

It meant a lot to us. There were a small group of people that really poured our hearts into it. Now, two groups have taken over the house to try and make it a go, and I think they were sincere trying to help in any way they could, but it’s time for the town to look at this seriously, take it over, put an entity in there that is proven, that people need, that the town will be happy with, that you could use, that children could use because it’s clearly, and I will say myself, it’s over my head. It’s not fair to ask people like me to take care of this house to its full potential. Do I have ideas how to help the house, how to help the community? Sure, I do and I know others do too. So, I think fresh eyes have to be put on it. I know you people are very sincere and Betty, very sincere on getting the best bang for the taxpayer buck because that’s who we owe. We owe the taxpayers of this town. And the CARES Act was definitely being used in 2020 and ‘21 and it should have been. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Steve, just one second. Mr. Helm would like to ask Bill Keohan a few questions and then you can come right up to the mic.

Harry Helm:

Bill, I have two questions for you, one specific and one more for general perceptions. The first specific, it was mentioned that there are potential legal complications. And obviously, we have one of the tenants here who’s very concerned about that statement. Is that statement true? You’ve worked with these leases, you set up the program, you work with affordable housing or is this a problem?

Bill Keohan:

Right now, with your council looking at it, I think they will confirm what I have examined when I saw the leases and that is they are transferable or the current leases could be in effect because we’re referencing a unit number and an address. So, it really doesn’t matter who’s managing the property. The lease is going to default to the name in the address and the unit number, but I think that it would be best that you have legal counsel look at it and if you have to rewrite them then that’s something that appears that the two tenants would be cooperative to do.

Harry Helm:

Understood on the prudency of legal counsel but from your perspective, am I correct in believing that you do not see legal complications from your perspective and your experience?

Bill Keohan:

No, especially when you have all parties in agreement to protect the tenant’s interests and make sure they have a place to stay and that we’re going to continue this relationship.

Harry Helm:

Okay. Thank you very much. Now, general, how do you feel about this? How do you feel about the current organization that’s managing it? How are you feeling about the state of the house? How are you feeling about everything moving forward? And how do you feel about a year-long extension to the agreement to the contract?

Bill Keohan:

Well, as I stand before you today, I stand before you as the member of the Community Preservation Committee, a town meeting member and a volunteer for this organization for nearly eight years.

[1:05:08]

Bill Keohan:

So, it’s a very painful spot to be in right now because I think back of all the different people that committed themselves, volunteers and all the efforts that have been done over the last eight years. And today, we’re at a point where obviously we had a pandemic. When we were going into that pandemic, the previous President, Mr. Moody was resigning and moving out of Plymouth. We had to put together a group of people to transition this to a new management element that was nearly two and a half years ago. As we come out, we’ve been out of the pandemic for some time now, and we’re having difficulty renting units so the income of this property has diminished greatly and we’re unable to do the maintenance to the building. I have to default to my responsibility on the CPC and as a town meeting member and as a volunteer for this organization that I would refrain from signing or extending any further leases. I would ask the board to put together a temporary task group, task force crews to look at different options and come back to you within 10 days with options that the building could be utilized to protect its condition. Right now, the economic model and the organization is still having difficulty meeting that obligation protecting the interest of the taxpayers and the $4.5 million dollars that went into the building.

This organization has done a great job under trying times with a great number of volunteers. So, it was not only Manomet Village Common Inc., but it was the Manomet Simes House and it was a lot of different people over the last eight years have dedicated a lot of time. But paramount to this, we need to separate that and look at the facts the taxpayer using their CPA fund put $4.5 million into this building. We have to protect the condition of that building. And if it means re-examining the economic model to find another option to care for the building, I think that time is of the essence and that should be pursued as soon as possible. My advice would be not to sign any continuation of any leases, but to open up a task force to get back to you at a very time sensitive point with recommendations on how to use the building.

Harry Helm:

Thank you.

Charlie Bletzer:

Is the CPC money available? Is there money put aside, I think I was told that to paint the building?

Bill Keohan:

Correct. So, during the Phase Two operation that we went to town meeting and find the funding, town meeting approved the money for the renovations. It went out to bid, the work was done. There was money left over in that endeavor, and the idea would be using a portion of that money for painting the building. The CPC has committed money for a paint analysis of the building. We’re poised to do that, but obviously as the pandemic came into the circumstance, the current financial situation came into the circumstance, that discussion has been tabled but yes, there is money and the money is set aside for the future painting of the building.

Charlie Bletzer:

The other question is there’s water damage. Obviously, we know it came from the offices upstairs and shouldn’t that have been an insurance claim and why wasn’t that repaired? And is there money to repair that?

Bill Keohan:

So, there’s money to deal with that. What had happened was that the air conditioning units that were installed in the building, mini splits on the second-floor interior, they didn’t want to destroy the building with major tubing with air conditioning being a historical building so this was the least disturbing of units. These units what happened was the tubes that take their condensation down to a pump in the basement backed up. So, the water went down the wall. We had the pumps fixed and we were waiting for the wall, it’s horsehair plaster so we wanted to dry out properly before we plastered and painted it.

Charlie Bletzer:

Question, when was that damage done?

Bill Keohan:

That was done last year.

Charlie Bletzer:

And again, I’m not critical of anybody especially not volunteers. I’m not critical of anybody, but one of the problems we have in the past is we have town buildings that have leaks. They don’t get repaired, they don’t get fixed and they get worse and then it costs us a lot more money. So, my thing is it’s been a year. Is there something we can address and get done and also make sure the problem with the splitters is fixed so it doesn’t happen again? So, I hope we can do that. Problems like that we should address as soon as we can. So, anyway.

Dick Quintal:

Any other questions? Comments? Mr. Peck and Mr. Lydon. Go ahead, Steve.

[1:10:05]

Steve Lydon:

Steve Lydon, Plymouth resident. Eight years ago, I was a town meeting member and I voted for the Simes House. And I thought this was going to be great for the community. I was also a member but unfortunately, it’s been a failure. Charlie Brown tree was a big thing, they moved it, it died. Another Charlie Brown tree that died. I think there was only one wedding there when it was supposed to having a lot of different weddings and events. There are four small parlors. You’re not going to get any good-sized meetings because the rooms are so small. I wish you could sell it. And unfortunately, I hear that there’s too many restrictions and you wouldn’t be able to sell it but this building is going to end up costing more and more money every year. Just like a boat, you throw your money in the ocean when you got a boat. This is the same thing. This is going to keep on costing us money to maintain this historical building. So, good luck. I don’t know what you’re going to do but good luck.

David Peck:

Thank you, Board of the Selectmen. My name is David Peck. I’m Chairman of the building committee that worked on Simes House, but I’m here speaking as an individual. I would note that we are almost 5 years to the date of the dedication. The Simes House was dedicated on July 15th, 2017, five years ago and I think the process of acquiring it and fixing it was long, complicated and I thought I’d read some of the remarks from our dedication, which sort of to remind you of our process, and this was written in 2017.

It’s interesting to reflect that the Simes House project took 6 years from the original community preservation funding in 2011 essentially the same time it took to create Plymouth North High School between its original bond approval and then the building. So, it takes time to do this. Simes House project has been an interesting journey from the first idea after tax taking in 2010, the initial community preservation funding in 2011, the first phase of construction was 2012, 10 years ago, followed by a period of management disagreements. We had a second round of community preservation funding in 2015, refinement and reduction of scope and budget prior to construction starting in 2016. By the way, the reduction in scope, it was expensive back then in ’15 and ’16. Someone mentioned the kitchen. The original plan had a full commercial kitchen, and to fit within the budget you have to sort of sometimes cut things to make sure you fit the budget. I will say when our construction was completed in July of 2017, the Building Committee and the project team delivered it a hundred thousand dollars under its budget and perhaps that some of the money Bill Keohan happened to mention.

It’s also an award-winning building. It was submitted to the Mass Historic Commission and it won an Adaptive Reuse Award in 2018. It’s a special building, I think and we’ve heard that from everybody, and I also included two quotes which I think remained true. This has been hard work to get to 2017 and I think it’s going to be hard work to get here to 2022. There’s a quote that said, “The final product of success always looks simple. The grit and grind behind the scenes looks like bloody elbows and a muddy mess. And even getting to 2017 was complicated but I I’m here as an individual to say I’m in support of the one-year extension on this with a further proviso to that the current group work closely with the town to work on the master plan and either its ultimate success or transfer in a year if this can’t work. But instead of a cold turkey stop, I’m in support of the one-year extension and I’ll close with a quote from Winston Churchill who would say, “We are not at the end. We are at the end of the beginning.” So, I’m hoping that we get to a new beginning for this special place that a lot of work went into, an award-winning concept with affordable housing offices, conservation and meeting things and so I urge you to extend it with an understanding that there’d be a lot of hard work between now and then and final decisions.

[1:15:10]

John Mahoney:

Mr. Quintal? Mr. Peck.

David Peck:

Yes?

John Mahoney:

David, can you tell us what your background is, where your skill set is in, how long you’ve been on the Building Committee and the projects that have come in front of the Building Committee through your duration on that committee. And I think the young woman in the back row, I think her name was Victoria, one of her comments when she was at the podium was gee, I don’t think this is a $4 million building. And maybe could you go into how it got to being that cost.

David Peck:

Well, I’ll start at the beginning. I’m a retired architect, went to Dartmouth and Yale, worked at Children’s Hospital as their Director of Facility Planning for 35 years and retired in 2012 going into 2017. I also have been on the Building Committee or Chairman since 2005. And so, the buildings Plymouth North, Plymouth South. My experience began with the crematorium, which was mid-2000s but also the two high schools. As I said, the Emergency Operations Center. Recently, the Maritime Building and the Plymouth North Fire Station. And of course, this building and the parking lot next to it. So, Building Committee has been busy on all of those. That’s a very collaborative effort with both the architects and the contractors and we aim to deliver a big fat check that is returned from each project. And by and large, the Building Committee delivers projects on or below budget.

Now, in terms of why it cost as much as it did, I would say I am baffled, we are baffled because the outside had already been done, been painted in the first phase and then the design was done, competitively bid and there are issues of whole foundations needing to be rebuilt under the building, chimneys needed to be pulled out, new stairs. People said there’s no exit. Well, in fact, exits to satisfy the building inspector and the fire inspector were in fact installed. Although on a residential building, windows sometimes count because in theory the ladders can go up there too. So, it meets all code. In 2017, it meets all code but we were surprised but that’s why we had to reduce the scope. We had to trim things to be able to fit that budget. As anybody knows construction, there’s dips and there’s valleys and there’s peaks and it was bid. It also as a project fit between small projects and big projects. So, there are contractors who like doing $10 million and larger projects and then there’s essentially residential or big residential contractors who do smaller jobs. This fell in the crack where it was hard to have the right fit for the contractors, but we did get competitive bids and they all came in high and that’s why we had to reduce the scope.

I think we still ended up with a village and a neighborhood asset. And I’m just saying as a person give this group time. They’ve reduced their requests from five to one years and there’s a lot of work to do to fill all that space and get it on a better financial basis that serves the citizens of Plymouth. No doubt. So, I’m glad to throw in my ten cents here, five cents.

John Mahoney:

Thank you, David.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Mrs. Cavacco.

Betty Cavacco:

Actually, I have a question for Mr. Peck and it doesn’t really have to do with this but could you send the Board of Selectmen a list on what the Building Committee is doing, what project you’re working on. Are you working on any projects right now?

David Peck:

Absolutely! I’ll tell you. On the 14th, bids come in for the West Plymouth Fire Station, sub-bids have already come, final bids are due the 14th. Building Committee will be looking at them and hopefully making a recommendation for award. Design team immediately moves to the Manomet Fire Station which we hope to get out to bid at the end of this year. We’re working with multiple parties to find a revised place for the Bourne Fire Station. We’re working with Chief Foley on that. And of course, we’re also working with Chief Foley on station one and its long-term future. So, there’s multiple projects.

DPW is in the process of master plan, that may be deferred a little bit I’m under understanding but we’ve got both fire stations and DPW things in our list to work hard on.

[1:20:20]

Betty Cavacco:

What is the DPW? I haven’t heard about them.

David Peck:

They’re doing a master plan for their campus right now for a potential phased series of buildings and development on their existing campus.

Betty Cavacco:

Okay.

David Peck:

I mean, I can put that in writing but those are the things we’re working on right now.

Betty Cavacco:

No, that’s fine.

David Peck:

Yeah, not to mention all the school roofs. So, we’re working with the school department on West. Brad would remember but I think it’s Indian Brook West and Federal Furnace roofs and the emergency work on the Nathaniel Morton roof, which is why the parking area is fenced in right now.

Betty Cavacco:

Excellent, thank you. I haven’t heard at all a report from the Building Committee, so I appreciate it. Although I will have questions for Mr. Brindisi about a DPW complex. Another time. Thank you.

David Peck:

Okay. Thank you all. Yes?

John Mahoney:

David, I just don’t want people at home to get confused. You said the Bourne Fire Station?

David Peck:

The Bourne Road Fire Station. Yeah, the Bourne Road Fire Station, which if anybody knows it, is small and is on a tight site and a very difficult site up on stilts and I think the firefighters sleep in the basement. We’re working on alternative ideas for a new home for the Bourne Road Fire Station.

Dick Quintal:

AKA the bat cave.

David Peck:

Okay. Thank you. Any more questions? Feel free to ask.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Anthony, excuse me, there’s somebody up there but there’s no name is, do you have a name?

Anthony:

The name is Kathryn Holmes.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. Mrs. Holmes?

Kathryn Holmes:

Hi, everyone! Can you hear me okay?

Dick Quintal:

Uh-hmm.

Kathryn Holmes:

Excellent. So, I just wanted to just make a couple quick comments. First, to say to Mr. Peck, thank you so much for providing that history and that sum up, that was excellent. And also, to just to be able to share some thoughts on the current board. I recently joined the board. I haven’t been on very long at all and so have many other several other members. As Miss Curtin had said, there was a complete overhaul in this board. And so, I with other people were asked to try to lend some support and some professional or business expertise on what we needed to do, and we’ve been very busy on trying to put order around it.

One of the first things that was done was a business operations plan to be able to have some fundamental principles or governance around how we would actually manage this building and making sure that we were caring for and taking care of our tenants. Baseline, like how are we cashing checks? What bank are we using? What’s the format? Who’s picking them up? How are we supporting our tenants? What’s the turnaround time for any issues that come up with tenants? Who’s the contact person? And all of that was outlined in a business operations plan that took, and it was an extensive exercise done by several members of this board. And so, there is a lot of that background foundation work that we’ve been tasked with over the last couple months since I’ve been on this.

In parallel, we’ve been aggressively trying to determine how can we actually create a better community space for the building, and I think that we’re all in consensus that Manomet really deserves a community space and they don’t currently have a space. And when I say that, I mean a space where people can meet. So, there’s a lot of activity that we’ve done in the last couple of months around event planning, how we can engage the community and different ways that we’re going to do that. There are clearly some challenges with that. Parking, as you know, is a problem. And so, when you look at the long-term strategy for that building, we need to ask the town for support in the sense that maybe we’re able to utilize the library parking, maybe we certainly need expertise regarding the actual structural maintenance of the building. And Ms. Curtin was very clear, the ask is to allow for the town to assist us in some of that building maintenance.

Is everything perfect? Absolutely not. It’s up to this board to decide whether they extend the license or not, but I think from my perspective as a new member of this board trying to put some order around it with the support of these people, I want to say this.

[1:25:14]

Kathryn Holmes:

This new board that’s been in place is a group of really dedicated volunteers. Some of them very long-time residents of Plymouth who are passionate about the building. And sometimes they disagree about the way that that building should be maintained or the direction of where we want to bring that building. And it’s unfortunate that private emails within the board were shared in a place where people are now criticizing the professionalism of that board. But I think for me personally I just want to say that it’s an incredibly passionate dedicated group of people, and I think that we all need to come to the table and collaborate on a long-term solution but I’d like to make sure that we’re not finger-pointing and especially when we start threatening volunteers of legal action. And so, I would just leave this with one comment that as a town, we know how difficult it is to maintain buildings. We have done an atrocious job over the last 15 years maintaining some of our own buildings and we are collectively trying to work together with town meeting and this new board and other groups and the fire chief and the police chief and DPW to try to correct that. So, whether the board decides to extend the lease or not, I would ask that they try to maintain that building. There’s an enormous amount of money that’s been invested in it, but I think that they’re in that audit that it sounds like has been suggested we certainly need to look at how that building will be maintained and managed in the future, and we need to make sure that the Town of Plymouth is willing to step up to do that. And based on past experience, there are definitely some difficulties in that. So, that’s my comments and I just want to thank everybody that has been a volunteer of that board way before my time on all the work that they did do because there’s enormous amounts of hours that have been put in to trying to save that building. But most importantly, to provide a community space for management. And that may not be a big deal right now, but if you fast forward 20 to 30 years when land is not as prevalent and that the town continues to grow, that space may be extremely vital based on exactly where it’s located in that city center. Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Mrs. Cavacco?

Betty Cavacco:

So, just to be clear, my intention is not to get rid of the building and I’m not sure what the Board wants to do but my intention is to find other uses for the building. As far as personal emails, you know what, it came to the board. So, we do not tolerate that type of behavior. It’s right on the edge of bullying and I want no part of that. So, I’m sorry, listen.

Dick Quintal:

Mrs. Cavacco has the floor. Thank you.

Betty Cavacco:

Well, I can send all those emails to you if you’d like it and you can probably ask Mr. Keohan for copies of them as well. So, with that being said, the legal action, it’s not legal action but this is no place for hate. We don’t tolerate bullying. We don’t teach it in our schools. We don’t allow it in our schools. We don’t allow it in this form of government. We don’t allow it anywhere, and I don’t want that happening on any board or committee whether you like someone, whether you hate someone, whatever it may be. So, just to clarify that. And if the board has further discussion, I would like to hear what the board has to say. And Mr. Quintal, if they do not, I am prepared to make a motion.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Mrs. Bartlett? You should have lights on. Please, Joan. Nice to see you.

Joan Bartlett:

This has been very interesting. I have to keep changing what I’m going to say. When I first heard that things were not going too well, I began talking to a lot of friends and relatives I have in the area. And every time I mentioned the Simes House, they just roll their eyes and say, “Not me.” So, I took a trip down there.

[1:30:05]

Joan Bartlett:

I had just been to the Plymouth Philharmonic where they played Beethoven’s violin concerto, and I was so moved by it. So, as I was driving down, it was playing on the radio and I got to the building and I looked at it and I thought, ‘Now, that should be a music conservatory.” So, I called all my friends and we all got excited.” And so, they kept adding more and more possibilities. And I know this sounds silly, but we need to end on a happy note, I think. And music is very important especially when things aren’t good in the world.

The house looks so forlorn, the big gray building with no signs of life but a conservatory of music really wouldn’t fit in. There’s no big space to play concerts but there could be people renting upstairs who would like to do things about music. And then other ideas came to me from other people in town, how about moving the library that’s down there into that building? Now, I know everyone loves that library as it is but it’s something to consider. How about a satellite town office with flexible hours down there? And how about seniors for their active living where they could have yoga down there. It’s such a long drive to get back to town here and we could still have chamber music groups and small groups of music and art things as people have mentioned before.

So, my feeling is we should get together a group and start to see whether any of these things could work. Music is never more important than in these troublesome times. Thank you very much.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Mahoney?

John Mahoney:

Donna, can you put it back to the slide that showed us the revenues from 2019, that breakdown?

Donna Curtin:

Oh, gosh. I’m not going to be able to see this. Oh, good. All right. Let’s go. Oh, good. He’s doing it for me. Perfect. Hands-free. One more. There it is, yup.

John Mahoney:

Yup. All right. So, obviously, my favorite photo was the one at night with the moon in the background, that was excellent.

Donna Curtin:

Mr. Keohan pick, I believe.

John Mahoney:

Okay. David, I didn’t appreciate you telling us that you went to two different Ivy League schools. But having said that, David shared with us his speech from the ribbon cutting I believe in July of ‘17. So, you’re coming into this five years later. So, two different entities, a cast of very dedicated volunteers. Obviously, none of these people are getting paid for their work. You’re getting your feet underneath, you in 2017 and 2018, you get the 2019 and there’s a net positive of just under $14,000. And if I heard Miss Curtin correctly, 89 events at that building during the calendar year I believe in 2019. So, you’re getting your feet underneath you and then what happens in March of ’20, the world was shut down and it hadn’t happened in this country since 1918, the Flu Pandemic of 1918. So, the entire economy on planet Earth was shut down. Some of us are saying that we’re back to where we were before the pandemic, when I stepped foot in Plymouth North High School in October for town meeting, I’ll know that we’re back to where we were before the pandemic because if I have to participate in an entirely remote town meeting again, I’m not going to be happy.

So, this was a tremendous investment. I can sit here and talk about whether or not it was an overreach all night. It was award-winning. It checked off all the boxes with respect to the Community Preservation Act.

[1:35:04]

John Mahoney:

I’m guessing, I saw a picture of Mr. Parker. I was there on town meeting floor when Mr. Parker made the motion for town meeting to allocate $4,000 for a top of some sort to protect the roof of all those 12 years ago, I believe. So, this is open space, this is a historical and this is affordable housing. So, I think it’s unfair not only for the volunteers who have dedicated their time over the last five to ten years but I think it’s unfair to Mr. Brindisi and Mr. Brothers over there to with 48 hours to go drop this in their laps. I have no problem supporting a 365-day extension so that all of a sudden this isn’t dumped in their laps and they have to deliver results instantaneously. We’re going to have to take the insurance. Now, we’re landlords again. What is this going to cost? And I’d rather give them the one-year extension, town staff gets together with this non-profit. Obviously, incorporating the Manomet Village Steering Committee and bringing all the stakeholders together and let’s see what the best use is.

I told you I met with the economic development today, Stephen wasn’t aware. There’s a phone call to be made there and there’s numerous other options. So, having said, that I’ll make a motion that we extend the agreement for one year.

Dick Quintal:

Do I have a second? I’ll do a second for discussion. Discussion? Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

I think it’s really easy to blame COVID for the current state, but when you look at the 2019 revenues, please keep in mind that there was no pilot agreement and I do need to go back in time because I was on the Finance Committee when both fundings were being discussed and a pilot was always part of it, always. Before the Manomet Center group ever put in their response to the proposal. I worked with Moody and the rest of the group on that proposal. That wasn’t their idea. That was part and parcel of what pushed this through town meeting. And I remember it because I’m the one who calculated at the rate of the pilot that it would take approximately 735 years to pay off the $4.5 million dollars. If anybody remembers that adventure. Bill shaking his head, he remembers that. So, I do know that the pilot agreement was part and parcel of this before the proposal, the response from this group was done.

It’s clear from both the raccoon incident, the raccoon in the basement incident not necessarily that it took them some time to get things together to get the raccoon out, but the fact that clearly there was a maintenance issue that allowed a raccoon to get into the basement of the house in the first place. I’m coming from a homeowner here, homeowner’s perspective here. Okay? I watch my home. Okay? I have standard level of maintenance that would not allow a raccoon to get into my basement. Okay?

The other thing I know that when you have air conditioners that standard regular maintenance includes cleaning the clog in the water vent, the condensation vent. That’s standard yearly maintenance. It’s clear to me that this was not done. Now, I’m not saying that it’s the responsibility of this current group or the old group but obviously, there were maintenance issues that were going on at the time. And I’m just not sure that it makes sense to take a look at the last five years and see that the experiment in how it was going to supposedly pay for itself, which is that was part and parcel of why town meeting agreed to this. There was not going to be any maintenance asks from the town. There was not going to be any insurance asks from the town. There was actually going to be money paid back to the town. Five years, in my mind, the experiment has failed. I don’t see any reason to continue it.

[1:40:15]

Harry Helm:

And apropos to Mr. Cabana, Mr. Keohan and Miss Bartlett’s thoughts after we deal with this aspect of it. I’m going to make a motion to create a task force of residents, of members of other committees, members from the foundation, etc., etc., a group of people committed to this building and coming up with a creative view of where do we go to make this work and to save this building from further dilapidation. So, I mean, that’s how I feel.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer?

Charlie Bletzer:

Can I ask you to hold that motion until we get this motion?

Harry Helm:

Oh, yeah. I said that I was holding the motion.

Charlie Bletzer:

I just want to say this that this decision, I did my due diligence on this before I make my decision. I went down there, I visited, I saw the folks down there and I talked to a few people. One of them being our Town Manager Derek Brindisi. I talked to two or three other people that are long-time Simes volunteers and I just want to say this with all volunteers, I’ve been on volunteer boards. This basically is a volunteer board. I mean, we get paid a stipend but I commend anybody that’s on. You guys worked hard. I know you did. I just think you need help and I just think that I would prefer to turn it to our town manager and let him do a study instead of involving a bunch of people. If he wants to have a former committee, I would trust his judgment on that and talk to the residents. We have to find out what the best use of this building is for the residents and the taxpayers. So, is that something that you could do or what would you prefer?

Derek Brindisi:

I mean, we are certainly happy to take any direction from the Board. If the Board votes not to provide the contract renewal, I do agree with everybody here that we have to identify what the future use will be.

Charlie Bletzer:

I think we have to do it quickly. I really think this is something that should be done as soon as possible and I’ll leave it up to the experts but that’s how I feel, so.

Dick Quintal:

Mrs. Cavacco? Any comment or we ask for the vote?

Betty Cavacco:

No. Ask for vote.

Dick Quintal:

Okay, thank you. All those in favor of extending the lease? I’m sorry, John.

John Mahoney:

No. I’m voting in favor.

Dick Quintal:

That was your motion though, right, was to extend it one year?

John Mahoney:

Yeah.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. And I second it. All those in favor? One in favor, Mr. Mahoney. Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

No.

Dick Quintal:

No. I mean, you said you were going to make a motion.

Harry Helm:

Oh, I thought you would run through the rest of the votes just in case somebody might be abstaining. I don’t know.

Dick Quintal:

So, Mr. Helm is a no. Ms. Cavacco?

Betty Cavacco:

No.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer and myself, no.

Betty Cavacco:

Harry, excuse me. Mr. Helm, I believe that before we create the task force or even look to talk about a task force, I think that–

Harry Helm:

Correct, Betty. As I mentioned, I said after we resolve the contract with this group or not then that was just a preview of coming attractions. I think you’re going to the fact that we need to resolve the first question at hand.

Betty Cavacco:

Yeah, and the first question was resolved. So, now, Derek, do you need a motion to not renew the lease and turn everything over to the town by 14?

Derek Brindisi:

I think that certainly would make things clear.

[1:45:00]

Betty Cavacco:

Then I will make that motion.

Dick Quintal:

Do I have a second?

Harry Helm:

I’ll second that.

Dick Quintal:

Second by Mr. Helm. Discussion? No one for discussion. All those in favor?

Betty Cavacco:

Aye.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Helm? Yes or no?

Harry Helm:

Oh, sorry, no.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Mahoney? No.

Harry Helm:

Well, no. I mean, we just all voted in favor of Betty’s motion.

Dick Quintal:

I’m doing a rollcall.

Harry Helm:

Oh, you’re doing a rollcall? I’m sorry. Yes. So, yes, my vote is yes.

Dick Quintal:

Yes.

John Mahoney:

No.

Dick Quintal:

No for Mr. Mahoney? Mr. Bletzer?

Charlie Bletzer:

Yes.

Dick Quintal:

Yes. Four yes’s and one in opposition. Okay. Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

I would like to make a motion that a task force be put together of residents at town administration from across the board, other committees, the foundation to very similar to what was done with the precinct redistricting committee that successfully helped push us through that change to examine the future of the Simes House with an eye to determining creative ideas that could be instituted to create a successful Simes House moving forward.

Betty Cavacco:

I’ll second it for discussion.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. Discussion?

Betty Cavacco:

Discussion, I have a discussion.

Dick Quintal:

Go ahead, Mrs. Cavacco.

Betty Cavacco:

So, I don’t necessarily have an issue with a task force, but I would like to get Derek’s opinion on how he would like to move forward with this.

Derek Brindisi:

Through the Chair, so again, this is really up for the Board to decide. There’s two courses of action. We certainly can take this on to the administration to work with Stephen Cole, which came up this morning at our staff meeting to look at potential private sector uses. We’ve heard today and we’ve heard from others in the past that there’s enough potential opportunity for public sector uses. So, whether it’s a CAL, a library, a satellite town hall. So, again, we can do that on our own internally but if the Board chooses, we certainly can work with certain community members. I’d like a little direction on what that would look like. So, we’re not choosing who those individuals are. So, if there’s ideas on what seats or what individuals should be sitting on that task force, I would appreciate that tonight.

Harry Helm:

Would you like me to answer that?

Derek Brindisi:

I guess any one of the five could answer that. Yeah, sure.

Harry Helm:

In my mind, it’s a task force just like we put together for the precinct redistricting. There was no preset group of people. Okay? It was publicized, people knew about it and those who were interested and those who had capabilities to help direct it, came on board. And that’s what we did. I would just like to say why I think it’s important that there be a task force. It is very important to remember who paid for the Simes House. You didn’t pay for it. I paid for a little bit of it. Brad, I don’t think paid for it. A lot of the people who work in the town didn’t pay for it, because they don’t live here. The people out here paid for it. The taxpayers of Plymouth paid $4.5 million and to take the deliberation, the consideration, the creative contribution that they could have the thoughts for instance that Ms. Bartlett had or that Ms. Buechs had, or that Mr. Keohan had and say well our town administration knows better than you. I don’t think that that’s fair. I don’t think that that’s proper process.

[1:50:08]

Harry Helm:

I think that it’s important that the residents and the groups, you mentioned the foundation, you can mention someone from the CPC, you can mention all sorts of different groups that would have some sort of ability to look at history, who have been involved with the history, look at the history, learn from it in order to move forward. I think it’s a better process when we have citizen resident taxpayer involvement, period. It’s just how I am.

Betty Cavacco:

You know what, I don’t have an issue with that, Harry because I kind of think the same but one of the things that if we’re going to put something in place, we need to advertise it and be able to appoint by our next meeting which is July 19th, and that gives people seven days.

Harry Helm:

Yeah. I’m not going to disagree with you on that, Betty. It was made pretty clear that people were not saying that this would drag out for a year, that you’re talking about–I think Bill’s estimation of 10 days is a little bit quick but that doesn’t mean that we’re talking months and months for this. You’ll remember, Betty how quickly the Precinct Redistricting Committee got together, how hard they worked because they felt it was really important. And I think that other residents and other stakeholders who feel it’s important will come forward and they’ll put in the amount of work that it’s going to take in a relatively short time. We have the precedent that with the precinct redistricting that worked great and they worked their tails off to get that done in a few short weeks, and it was a massive project. So, once again, I said what I needed to say about why I think it’s of extreme importance that we have a group of people that is wider than just town administrators and it involves the residents who paid for this and will continue paying for it. Because there are still problems with that house that are going to have to be corrected. So, I just think for validity, for proper process I think it’s the right way to do it.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Mahoney and then Mr. Bletzer.

John Mahoney:

So, Harry, you’re referencing the Redistricting Committee and a couple of weeks ago, there was a Dog Park Committee. So, you’re suggesting something similar to what I witnessed at the Dog Park Committee where 15 to 30 people show interest, we appoint them all to the committee and then–

Harry Helm:

Every one of these set up is different. I don’t anticipate it. Betty, how many residents did we put on the precinct redistricting? Nine.

Betty Cavacco:

No. I think it was like in the 20s, wasn’t it? I think that was the Dog Park.

Charlie Bletzer:

It was 9.

Betty Cavacco:

Yeah. Just so you know that because of such the emergent condition that the building is in, with repairs and leases and all that, I would like to put a seven-person or a five-person limit and have Anthony post that tomorrow, get letters of interest and then we appoint next week. If that’s okay with you.

Harry Helm:

That’s not up to me. I don’t have a problem with the number of people on it. I think this group certainly should not be as wide-ranging as the 22 people on the Dog Park Committee because it’s a very different sort of thing, and it needs to function in a very different time frame. The Dog Park is going to take place over years at least one year. It’s a long-term investigation. So, yeah, to be nimble, it has to be limited. I would leave it up to other people to make that determination. I’m just proposing it because I think it’s the right thing to do for the residents of Plymouth.

Betty Cavacco:

And I agree, but we are the ones that make those determinations. So, if you could amend your motion or if you don’t want to amend your motion, I have no problem with a working group or task force or whatever you say. It was 14 people on the Precinct Redistricting group, but I would like to appoint seven people to the Simes House working task force if that’s what you called it, Harry.

[1:55:18]

Betty Cavacco:

And that letters of interest be submitted immediately and we will appoint on Tuesday of next week, which is the 19th.

Harry Helm:

I’m willing to amend the motion to 7. I would prefer 10, but I’m willing to go with 7 because I think that we will have 10 very qualified, interested and intelligent people who are going to be highly motivated to put in the amount of work. But if the Board feels that it should be seven people so be it. I’m willing to amend the motion.

Betty Cavacco:

And I’ll second that.

Charlie Bletzer:

I just have a comment. No matter what we do, a couple things. First thing is I want the town manager involved in this. I want him to either chair this committee, but I want him heavily involved because I want to find out the best usage for this building. And if it involves the town, he can talk to different town departments and see if we can do anything with this building. So, he has to be involved. It’d be nice to get a public private partnership because the building needs funding. It needs funding to survive. I’ll vote for this as long as he’s the chairman. And let me caution the Board, every time we put these committees out, we’ll say 9 people and 23 people put their names in and we say, “Let’s fold the whole slate.” So, if we’re going to have seven, let’s vote 7 people and not 17 people which has happened a couple times to us because it’s too many people. So, thank you.

Dick Quintal:

John?

John Mahoney:

No, I’m good.

Dick Quintal:

You’re good? Okay.

Harry Helm:

So, I guess, the motion is amended to a task force of 7 people chaired by the Town Manager, Mr. Brindisi.

Betty Cavacco:

Second.

Dick Quintal:

Discussion? I have just a little bit because I’ve been really quiet here. I’ve been listening. To be honest, I think the town is heavily in debt in this building. They’ve invested $4.5 million. I realize it may have been the price and you know what, it should have been. But since we got the price and the town put the $4.5 million plus into the building, it’s already been neglected. We have, I don’t know how many town buildings but I’m going to say too many that we can’t properly maintain as I sit here today. So, I would just ask this fast-moving task force that when they do come forward to be ready for my question, show me the money or show me where the money’s coming from, you can convert any building and I’ve been in there it was a while ago just some of the uses what they might come forward to but where is that money coming from? So, I know you said, what was it? 14 days.

Harry Helm:

Well, I didn’t specify a time period.

Betty Cavacco:

No, 7 days.

Harry Helm:

No, 7 people.

Betty Cavacco:

Seven people in seven days because the 19th is a week later.

Harry Helm:

Yeah, but–

Dick Quintal:

After that to do your work.

Harry Helm:

Seven people determined next Tuesday, Betty and then the time period for them to work has to be determined. I would just like to point out for everybody when you’re thinking about this, it could well be that this task force decides that the solution is to issue another RFP. I have no boundaries on what I expect them to do. I expect them to be smart. I expect them to be concerned and I expect them to work hard. And who knows what they’re going to come up with? But that’s why I’m proposing it. So, it could mean, your question, ‘show me the money,’ that’s something that I’m sure that they will be considering and who knows what they’re going to come up with.

Dick Quintal:

Right. And I’m not saying that they’re going to come up with something that does require it, but Albert Thompson once said, “Pie in the sky.”

[2:00:08]

Dick Quintal:

Look what it costs to do this building. It’s beautiful but there’s already $4.5 million into it. So, I can’t even see one of the solutions ever being selling it. I mean, not with me walking down the street after I voted for it. I mean, because like you said, the taxpayers have their money into it. So, I mean, I’m willing to look at things and listen, but I just want everybody to understand there’s other buildings. We just came back from a town meeting that said no to almost $4 million on Sandwich Road knowing that we’re going to need a new fire station and that’s their right, and they voted this 4.5 million for this so they probably maybe vote some more if it’s so needed. I mean, these are going to be discussions we’re going to have to have in the future. And we’ll see what this task force comes back with.

And I would like to take a moment to thank everybody who was on this committee and I don’t know everybody that was on it and the ones that left and I wasn’t here for all that, but thank you to any volunteers in the town that try to take on a task. And I think a lot of it is revolved around COVID and it’s just some things we can’t control. But I also know I don’t see the town throwing money around to start remodeling unless you can show them it’s going to pay it off but I don’t know by Harry’s long time, I won’t be around. Right, Harry? So, anyway, I just wanted to comment on a little, thank the people that have been involved and let’s see what comes out of the task force, I guess.

Harry Helm:

Have we voted for it?

Dick Quintal:

No, I’m assuming.

Harry Helm:

Okay. All right. So, all those in favor of the task force?

Charlie Bletzer:

Aye.

Betty Cavacco:

Yes.

John Mahoney:

No.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Mahoney, no. Mr. Bletzer, yes. Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

Yes.

Dick Quintal:

And myself, yes. Mrs. Cavacco, yes, right?

Betty Cavacco:

Yes.

Dick Quintal:

Four yes’s and one no, Anthony. So, you can advertise the positions, chop-chop. All right. Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

I have a subsidiary concern that I would like to discuss about the Simes House and an ongoing issue within this town. In my mind, the Simes House is just the latest example of our town’s inability to build a facility correctly the first time. We’ve seen it with the South High School that we had to replace after a short period of time, the library roof which being on Finance Committee, I listened to their roofing advisor tell the Finance Committee that had the correct roof been put on that building when it was built, we wouldn’t be paying the millions of dollars to replace the roof. Okay? That was a direct statement to the Finance Committee. So, obviously, they put the wrong roof on the library and it cost us millions of dollars.

The HVAC system at the CAL is another example of that. Need I mention the delightful sewer force main system explosion, which actually occurred before the system was paid off? Okay. We go down this road all the time. Time and time again, and we never really take the opportunity to examine why. What is it in our process that brings us to a point on a regular basis of us having to replace major aspects if not an entire facility on the backs of our taxpayers? We don’t do things properly the first time, and the taxpayers are tired of it. I would like to ask the town manager to contract investigate contracting with an independent engineering and construction firm to do an analysis on the Simes House from the very beginning on the construction, on what was spent, how it was spent and report on what we received and where the money went to in what we received.

[2:05:04]

Harry Helm:

I’m not casting blame on anyone but I think it is in. We’re here for the residents and we as a Board have to stand up for these residents, and I would like the Town Manager to find an independent engineering construction firm to do this analysis and report back to us on what happened but also what else needs to be done. Derek, you yourself discovered there’s no exit if there’s a fire for the people in the apartments. If they exit through the interior of the building, they will have to break through a window. There’s no fire bars on the front door. When they come down the staircase, there’s no fire bar. That’s a need. I myself have noticed, there was no weather stripping placed on any of the windows or the doors. What’s up with that? So, as we move forward with what we’re going to do with the Simes House, part of it is knowing what’s left to be done. And I’m not sure we really know it. And I think it’s great to have the DPW walk through it, but I think it’s more intelligent to have an independent engineering and construction advisor tell us what still needs to be done. So, I mean, I would just make that request. I don’t know if it has to be in a motion that we request that the Town Manager investigate this but I think it’s time. I think it’s high time that we look at this for the residents of Plymouth. This is an example. It’s not to say particularly the Simes House is the evil bugaboo. The evil the evil bugaboo is that we go down this road time and time and time again and we need to stop.

Betty Cavacco:

Mr. Quintal?

Dick Quintal:

Yes.

Betty Cavacco:

I know this is a word that many people feel uncomfortable about, but I think that the Simes House should have a forensic audit on their spending. So, I think that’s the only thing that we can do that’s in-depth that will show everything. An engineering company, I don’t believe dives that deeply into it or a construction company or whatever but my thought is a forensic audit. And if the Board thinks that’s a good idea then that’s the way we should move forward.

Harry Helm:

Betty, I would just say that that’s great to have auditors looking at invoices. A forensic audit that does not include an engineer. An independent engineering construction company only tells us we spent this on that, we spent that on that.

Betty Cavacco:

I agree with you on engineering.

Harry Helm:

Okay.

Betty Cavacco:

And call it whatever type of audit they want, but we need something on the terms of a forensic audit along with what you’re suggesting.

Harry Helm:

Derek, is this something you can look into?

Derek Brindisi:

So, I think we should take them separately, if you don’t mind. So, relative to the independent engineering analysis, that’s an expenditure of funds. I would appreciate the Board taking a formal vote to authorize the expenditure of funds in that sense. We do have money available in CPC that I think we could access. So, if we could take that first and then we can talk about the forensic audit, which I think is focused mostly on the nonprofit organization.

Harry Helm:

Okay. So, should I make a motion then you can talk or do you want to–

Charlie Bletzer:

I want to talk about the second motion. So, we can do the first motion.

Harry Helm:

Okay. I’d like to make a motion that we procure funding for an independent engineering construction analysis and report on the history of the Simes House reconstruction and currently, in their evaluation what is left to be done.

Charlie Bletzer:

I second it.

Dick Quintal:

Discussion? Mr. Mahoney?

John Mahoney:

Derek, how much time would you need to figure out how much this motion would cost if it passes?

[2:10:06]

Derek Brindisi:

Well, I have to do some research to determine what firm has the technical skills to do this type of analysis. Once I determine that and I don’t know, maybe Mr. Peck could help me, guide me in that direction. Once I determine that, I can get a quote as to what that cost would be.

John Mahoney:

And I hear you mentioned a couple minutes ago that this could be potentially paid for with CPC funds.

Derek Brindisi:

We do have CPC dollars that are available from the balance of this project. So, potentially we could use those dollars for this engineering audit. Again, I’d have to refer to our Finance Director on that.

John Mahoney:

So, I don’t support the motion. I’m comfortable in Mr. Peck’s skill set and the performance certainly of the Building Committee over the last 15 to 20 years. I think for the most part, I think virtually every project that you’ve laid your hands on has come in on time in either at or under budget. So, that’s why I asked the question of David when he was at the podium with respect to the tenant when she had mentioned, I work in construction, it’s not cheap. David talks about peaks and valleys. I see other communities trying to get projects done and obviously us too, you’re at a peak now. It’s “inflation” in lumber costs and I saw something the other day where the lumber cost might be coming down now. I don’t know if David continues to look at these things, but down the road if the Building Committee wanted to revisit this and look at it again but I think we currently have all the information we need.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer?

Charlie Bletzer:

John, I agree with you about not spending a lot of money. We’ve already spent $4.5 million but if there’s money left to do this, when was the last time you were in the building?

John Mahoney:

I don’t know, a week or two ago. A few weeks.

Charlie Bletzer:

Okay. We saw some things, some safety issues there that were very concerning and so that’s why we’re going to do this. So, just to make sure that the building is safe so that’s why the concern is for this engineering audit, I believe.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Helm?

Harry Helm:

Just to clarify, I’m perfectly willing to drop this for the time being until the Town Manager can come back with a cost estimate. But be aware, I’m not losing this. I ran on this point. Not the Simes House, but I ran on our town’s inability to actually build something correctly the first time. Okay? I’m not going to forget this. So, if you could get a cost, I will drop it. And John, we owe it to the residents of Plymouth. We spend millions and millions and millions of their dollars and we screw up all the time. I’m sorry, I’m just going to call a spade a spade, we screw up and it’s time for it to stop. The residents deserve this. With all due respect to Mr. Peck and the Building Committee, I think an independent look at why this happens time and time again is totally appropriate. And if they are the group that you say they are, they should be in total support of this. And if they aren’t, I would ask them why they would not be in support.

David Peck:

I have to say a couple words. First of all, I contest. It happens over and over and over again. It happens in some buildings, it’s happened far more frequently in the buildings 15 years and older. First of all, construction is never 100%. Occasionally, things do go wrong but if you look at the buildings that have been finished since 2006 and 2008, by and large, they’ve working fine now including this building. You can contest how much they cost, but the costs are sometimes driven by the market as they are now. But to come to your question, I absolutely speaking for myself and I can bring it to the Building Committee would welcome an independent because that would reassure the citizens of Plymouth. They could look at Simes, they could look at something else but by and large, I will tell you they’ll find that 99.9% of the time that the projects have been prudently put together and managed.

[2:15:09]

David Peck:

Yes, occasionally things go wrong but the ones you’ve mentioned of course, Building Committee was not involved in the sewer thing, the Simes, like I said, we were startled by how much it cost including elevator. There’s just an enormous amount of things that went into it. Of course, we know from John, elevators cost a fortune but I would say to reassure the citizens, we would certainly welcome that. I have no objection.

Harry Helm:

I think we’re in agreement. I have no predetermined outcome that I want to see. My predetermined outcome is that the residents of Plymouth become assured that we are being careful and watchful with their tax dollars when we spend them. So, I believe we’re in agreement.

David Peck:

Yeah. And I would say, we agree because we are watchful. I gave the list of the projects, the most recently. We occasionally have challenging contractors that need even more watching but the Maritime Building and North Plymouth Fire Station are the two most recent buildings that we’ve dedicated and I think both are well received and functioning as they were supposed to and came in on and below budget.

Harry Helm:

Thank you.

John Mahoney:

David, can you bring that discussion point back to your committee and have that discussion and let us know how that goes?

David Peck:

I’ll be glad to.

John Mahoney:

Thank you.

Dick Quintal:

Okay. That was a lot of discussion. So, where are we in this discussion?

Harry Helm:

I believe that the Town Manager is going to get an idea of the cost of this independent look and including the forensic audit, that would be a second one but we should have an idea of that cost and we’ll bring it in the next meeting, the following meeting. I mean, this is not something that we have to determine right away. This is just something that we need to do for the residents.

Charlie Bletzer:

Question?

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Bletzer?

Charlie Bletzer:

The forensic audit, what purpose is that going to serve?

Betty Cavacco:

So, I’m not saying that the forensic audit should be for the non-profit. I’m not saying that any of the nonprofits that did that, that were involved had any misuse of funds or anything like that. And maybe like I said before, maybe the word forensic isn’t something that we want and maybe we can get all that information from our Finance Director, but I haven’t spoken to anyone that thinks that building was worth $4.5 million and what we spend on it. So, I’m concerned that if it was that we need to see that. So, I don’t know, Derek, if Lynne, our Finance Director would have that and she could make a report for us and break it down. I don’t know if we need a separate auditor. I mean, I don’t want to spend a ton of money because we’ve already spent the ton of money.

To Harry’s point, our residents deserve the transparency of exactly what was spent and what it was spent on.

Charlie Bletzer:

We heard from Mr. Peck and I respect him and he’s told us he’s comfortable with what it costs. It was exorbitant but if there was a problem, I think David would know. I mean, he’s an expert in that field and I trust them. So, forensic audit, I think would be just a waste of money at this point. That’s my feeling so I would be against it.

Betty Cavacco:

Well, there isn’t anybody that motioned it, but like I said, a list of all the expenditures is fine.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Brindisi?

Derek Brindisi:

Just so I’m clear because I’m not right now.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you. I thought it was me.

Derek Brindisi:

The forensic audit I thought when Miss Cavacco originally brought it up was to review the expenses and the revenues of MVCI, the nonprofit 501(c)(3).

Betty Cavacco:

No.

Derek Brindisi:

Okay. So, the forensic audit is to look at the construction costs of the $4.5 million, is that what we’re saying?

Betty Cavacco:

Yes.

[2:20:03]

Derek Brindisi:

Okay. And how is that different than what Mr. Helm has requested?

Betty Cavacco:

Because he’s looking for an audit of engineering and construction, and what it will cost in the future. I’m saying that people keep asking us questions and saying things about the original $4.5 million that was spent. So, I think we should make that. Maybe it’s already public and we just haven’t seen it. So, if people are asking for it, we should be able to provide that. It has, like I said, again, to reiterate nothing to do with what the nonprofits did.

Derek Brindisi:

Okay. So, we certainly can go through the records and provide information as to the costs associated with the reconstruction or rehabilitation of the Simes House. I mean, we have that and our Procurement Department has all that information. We can make that available.

Betty Cavacco:

That’s perfect.

Harry Helm:

And Mr. Brindisi, perhaps when you discuss with any of these companies that you look at to perform this independent review, they may, you may find out that examining what was spent on what is part of that review. So, that would kill two birds with one stone. You may find that.

Dick Quintal:

Mr. Mahoney?

John Mahoney:

Seems like this is the open mic part of the meeting. So, I just want to say a few things with respect to Harry’s comment on infrastructure and I’ve said some of these things before, Harry and I’m going to say them again. So, Elon Musk or Bezos or whoever you want to say hasn’t discovered how to time travel yet. So, because we don’t have the ability to go back in time, single greatest thing we can do is learn from the mistakes of the past. So, I was on the board when I believe it was Ai3, David came in and did a presentation on the autopsy of South High School that was constructed in the ‘87 to ‘90 range, David? 80, the year, fiscal year, late 80s?

David Peck:

In the 80s.

John Mahoney:

Okay. So, what happened was there was no regulatory oversight from the commonwealth, and false conservatism dictates that when you’re an elected position irrespective of your party that cheaper is better. It’s never worked that way. They chose a 25-year-old design from the 60s, the building was 25 years old on paper before a shovel was put in the ground. They hired a contractor that wasn’t qualified to build a doghouse and they said, “Do it on the cheap.” That continued until the early 2000s when the Newton North High School project went to $197 million 20 years ago. And then the state stepped in and said, “You’re all incompetent.” And when I say, all, I mean all forms of government, all 350 communities. Doesn’t matter who you have in elected office, we don’t trust you with the us dollar anymore. And they put together a model school program and that program is the preeminent infrastructure program in the United States. You are not left alone with the us dollar. It is dictated to you that if you want funding from the state, it is quality of construction out of the ground and you’re going to maintain that investment. And we got lucky. Mr. Peck will talk to you about peaks and valleys. When North was built, I think we were in a valley, David. So, we did well cost wise. And by the time five years later, South came along, we were climbing up the peak. So, the sewer main. I was living in another community. I’m sorry, the South High School project, I followed another community front page news about how that went down. So, at least the commonwealth has stepped in and has changed the process with respect to school modernization and construction.

The sewer line, the town gravitated towards the cheapest option. What should have been put in the ground 25 years ago is now in the ground. It is over engineered. Apparently, you’re still one of only three communities in the Commonwealth that has a redundant pipe and it’s built of plastic and the walls two and a half inches thick.

[2:25:13]

John Mahoney:

I don’t care what you build, whether it’s a campus for your DPW staff, whether it’s fire stations, schools, town halls I don’t care what it is, it is over engineered. As soon as you hear people saying “We need to cut back,” you know you’re in trouble.

And then the last thing I’ll say is that Proposition 2 ½ doesn’t work. it is mathematically impossible under the umbrella of 2 ½ to maintain, modernize and upkeep all of our infrastructure without going to the voters for an exorbitant override. Proposition doesn’t do anything. It actually creates more costs than it contains. So, at least we’ve learned going forward. And then ultimately, as Mr. Peck said, in the last 10 to 15 years on the Building Committee, I think they’ve got a pretty good beat on it. And hopefully, David, I hope that you continue for another 10 or 15 years.

Charlie Bletzer:

John, have you ever seen Newton North.

John Mahoney:

I have not.

Charlie Bletzer:

197 million is quite a building. So, they have the money though there was no problem for them.

Dick Quintal:

Any other comments? Okay then. You made a motion you weren’t going to enforce the motion but he’s going to bring back the–right? So, okay. I just want to make sure. All right. That being said, let’s move on to licenses.

Leyden Street Coffee Company, Larry Anzuoni is requesting a Common Victualler License.

John Mahoney:

Move approval.

Charlie Bletzer:

Second.

Dick Quintal:

Discussion? All those in favor? Unanimous. Motion to adjourn?

John Mahoney:

So move.

Charlie Bletzer:

Second.

Dick Quintal:

Thank you for watching everyone. Have a good evening, what’s left of it and a nice week, and we’ll see you next week. Thank you.